Pole Vault Manifesto

[altius]

Just looking for feedback. Has anyone out there read Chapter 21 in Beginner to Bubka? More importantly from my perspective as the fellow who went out on a limb to write it - has it anything to contribute to this debate? Or is it just a load of 'hogwash', balderdash or plain old Ozzy 'bulls***'? Need to know so i can rewrite that chapter in the second edition!!!

[Stensol]

Who is agapit? I'll tell you who he is: He's a guy who probably got about 60 cm more (that's about 2 feet) on his top heights by practicing the technique he espouses here.

I saw agapit jump around 5.20 over a decade ago at the Drake Relays. I was absolutely dumbfounded; his vaulting had a bigger impact on me than Scott Huffman doing his roll over 5.80 that day.

Why?

Because this guy was really, I mean reeeeeeeeeally slow. He must've been on a pole that wasn't much longer than 4.60 (how many 17-foot vaults have you seen by guys using 15-foot poles?). I don't think he could have broken 13 seconds in the 100m if his life depended on it, and yet there he was, confidently sailing over 5.20.

The crazy thing was that he looked every time as if he was going to shoot about 30cm straight under the bar, but then at the last second, he went vertical to the tune of about an extra 60cm pretty much instantaneously, still going clearly upwards upon release. My jaw was dropping. How'd he do that? Impressive.

Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about.

[agapit]

I saw agapit jump around 5.20 over a decade ago at the Drake Relays. I was absolutely dumbfounded; his vaulting had a bigger impact on me than Scott Huffman doing his roll over 5.80 that day.

Wow Drake! Long time ago! Well actually, in my life, was fairly fast, 100m 10.60 in competition. However, after 1991 (ACL operation) I stopped training and shifted my focus on coaching. Alan Launder, at the time head Australian PV Coach, help me to establish my coaching career. In America, when you sow me at Drake, I have been training other then warm ups, 2 times a week with 1 training session a month in vaulting (4-6 vaults).

The pole at Drake was just a recreational event for me with 16' 195 (body weight 169) grip 4.65m or 15'2" with opening height 5.20m. And you are right it was very slow, but faster then 13' on 100m . Oh was it cold that day.

I always believed that if you cannot open with 36" push (grip/bar difference) you should not show up in the same pit with pros. So for someone with 5m opening grip that would be 5.70m opening height. However, I think it is smart to raise the grip 4-5" during competition to the maximum grip on the maximum height. So, 5m grip would open 5.60m at 4.90m grip or else go home if you cannot do it. This is the absolute minimum in my opinion. But if your best push is 70cm (2'4") well this is good for second year in high school. The future of the vault is with people who can do 1.30m -1.40m push on the 5.15-5.25m grips.

The Pole Vault Manifesto was written to make this statement and outline a direction in development to achieve 1.40m push on 5.20m grip in competition, the level Bubka already has achieved in training 15 years ago.

[ashcraftpv]

I know a few guys that look like they are running pretty slow but are actually very fast. Mark Buse was a good example. he had such a long stride, that he looked like he was plodding down the runway, but he consitently ran 10.7s in the open 100. Looks can sometimes be deceiving.......

[Stensol]

Well, I guess the fact is that agapit smoothly went into his plant and swing without the kind of violent take-off that was the trademark of guys like Jeff Buckingham made me sit up and take notice. (Although I have to admit that Buckingham is the most exciting vaulter I've ever seen live, and that includes Vigneron, Bell, Tully, Ripley, Olson, Bubka, Quinon [whatever happened to the "double bend"?], Dial, and many other great vaulters of the 70s, 80s, and 90s).

I've seen this "continuous chain" technique on numerous occasions with several athletes, and when you see it, you just can't believe that everyone isn't using this technique.

Just last night, I saw a Swedish woman jump 4.45 with no rocket speed, no high-chest, stiff-lower-arm plant (a la Buckingham, Dial, Klee, etc.), no typical good penetration, no rockback into a tuck position going back to vertical behind the pole, or any of the other trademarks that I thought were "good technique" when I was a teenage vaulter. Yet here she was, just swinging up and over with great timing, using so much of the energy stored in the pole. She reached the WC qualifying "A" standard and was naturally very happy about the performance. That might not seem so high to anybody reading this, but it's amazing to compare such a performance to some of the high school pole vaulters I competed against who weren't going much higher than that, but who were superb athletes and "seemed" to have decent technique.

I'm going to take a much closer look at agapit's "manifesto," especially about the things not to do. Crap, makes a guy want to come out of retirement and break those barriers that he knew he always had in him.

I hope agapit is able to continue coaching; I can imagine he would really be appreciated as a women's vault coach, since there are potentially many more women capable of 4.50-5.00 than men who are capable of 6.00+ meters.

OK, rambling a bit here, but I'm really interested in those who have jumped high, but are of average height, speed, and strength. Agapit, I appreciate your push-off goals for world-class vaulters, but how high has anyone jumped with a grip of only about 4.10-4.50? I can't imagine a lot of boys or men who have jumped as high as Feofanova with the grip height that she has.

My main interest in the technique that agapit is articulating here has less to do with extremes like 6.40, but more about helping young men of less-than-world class physical ability jump 5.40-5.50+ or women in the same category jumping 4.50+.

I'd like to hear about some more vaulters in the "not so big, not so strong, not so fast" category who have still jumped quite high. Would Borya Celentano fit into that category? Wasn't he using something akin to this "continuous chain" technique? Why haven't more vaulters caught on to this?

[altius]

(Quote) "but how high has anyone jumped with a grip of only about 4.10-4.50? I can't imagine a lot of boys or men who have jumped as high as Feofanova with the grip height that she has.

My main interest in the technique that agapit is articulating here has less to do with extremes like 6.40, but more about helping young men of less-than-world class physical ability jump 5.40-5.50+ or women in the same category jumping 4.50+. " (Quote)

I have no idea if the following will help answer the question posed above but here goes. The photos of young guys on the front cover of BTB show 18 yo twins Tom and Chris Lovell both in vaults where they cleared 5.00/16'5". Tom at 5'8" and 140 lbs is on a 15' 185lb pole with an effective grip of around 4.30m while Chris at 5'7"/140 is on a 15' 180lb pole with an effective grip of between 4.30 and 4.25. 19 yo Patrick Jesser pictured between them beginning a clearance at 5.40m, is jumping on a 16' 195 lb pole with an effective grip of approximately 4.50/55m.
Note that although they do not represent the model perfectly - as amateurs with less than super talent they are doing their best to do so. As is 19 yo Wendy Young, shown on the back cover beginning a 4.40m clearance with what seems darned close to a pre jump take off - unless my old eyes are deceiving me. But of course I could be wrong because every expert knows that the pre jump is just a hoax, dont they???

Those interested in Agapit's ideas may find my restatement of the continuous chain model, titled "Bubka - unique, or a generic model? on my website at beginnertobubka.com, food for even more thought.

[Stensol]

After I wrote my most recent response, I noticed some related threads that have provided me with some good info:

"PR on a 14' stick" *** "shortest men elite vaulters?" *** "Short Pole Vaulters?" *** "This is for the LITTLE GUY"

And to top it off, altius provided the excellent response just above. Thank you!

While this thread isn't particularly current anymore, I'm still very interested in understanding the role of "great technique" as a factor in determining how high someone can potentially vault.

I would like to believe that the 6.40 model is indeed real and something to strive for. There's just no other way for me to understand how vaulters who seem to be not fast enough, not strong enough, and/or not tall enough can jump heights that one previously wouldn't think they could.

Agapit keeps us focused in another thread on the fact that height clearance=pole grip+push-off. OK, that's a great place to start. So, let's see. Imagine we have two vaulters who are physically identical in terms of height, weight, and take-off speed. Vaulter X uses something akin to the 6.40 model, while vaulter Y can be characterized as using the 6.05 model. Does this mean that the following is most likely true?

Vaulter X probably grips higher than vaulter Y.
Vaulter X probably uses a heavier pole than vaulter Y.
Vaulter X probably has a greater push-off than vaulter Y.
Vaulter X probably vaults consistently higher than vaulter Y.

Or is this an oversimplification? The potential of agapit's manifesto here is that any vaulter Y out there can become a vaulter X with an improvement in technique. A case in point: Has anyone seen the post by matthew2, who is stuck at 14' and needs advice?

Let's say he's vaulter Y right now, albeit using perhaps the "5.00 model". He can still get great benefit by trying to incorporate as much of the 6.40 model into his own technique, right? Circumstantial evidence points to the fact that 4.75 is within Matthew's reach. Matthew's final steps, take-off/plant, and swing can be vastly improved. This will enable him to grip higher and get on heavier poles. Hell, that's 4.55 to 4.60 right there, already a 25cm+ improvement.

Matthew's potential technical improvements would allow him not only to transfer more energy into a stiffer pole, but to finally feel (through his improved timing) what it's like to take advantage of the energy stored in the pole, thus getting propelled over 4.75 or even higher.

Not to detract anything from Matthew, but if he were a woman, there'd be a lot of interest in helping someone currently at 14' but with the tools to clear 15'6"-16'. That really interests me.

If agapit or any other coach (uh, altius comes directly to mind! ) can explain how Matthew and his coach(es) can use the 6.40 model to help Matthew realistically approach 16', then I don't see that as being any less of a challenge as helping Patrik Kristiansson clear 6.05 or higher.

[altius]

Stensol - a really stimulating post!

I have a problem in that - perhaps unlike agapit- I believe that Bubka did have a '6.40' technical model -if only because he himself said that he would have cleared 6.40 on his 6.01 jump in Athens. This of course is what I have continually maintained in many posts - however I have also indicated that ordinary athletes can begin to jump 'like' Bubka, so yes Mathew could certainly improve -and improve a lot -if he could incorporate more elements of the Bubka model in his technique. As you will be aware that is what I have tried to show in BTB. Even getting the first step right is both a literal and metaphorical beginning and surely anyone can do that!

While agapit's manifesto is an interesting theoretical exercise - like you, I am more interested in determining how vaulters can improve to their OWN next level. So for example I dearly wish Markov would take my advice and stop dropping the lead leg -even for a moment- because i believe this slows down his swing, this in turn prevents him from covering the pole soon enough so that it has started to recoil before he gets into the best possible position to exploit the recoil fully -and then gets kicked off the pole early and forwards.

In fact I believe that virtually every one of the worlds leading vaulters -excepting Isinbyeva - have minor/major technical weaknesses which prevent them from fulfilling their potential, A very simple example is Jeff Hartwig who great as he is, could jump higher if he could maintain the whip of the long trail leg right through until it passes the chord of the pole. The minute shortening of that leg causes a small energy loss which i believe is why he must tuck - and so miss out on the chance to put energy into the pole in the third phase. Both he and markov were/are capable of 6.15/6.20 with those issues resolved -- in my very humble opinion.

Re the importance of technique - "It doesnt matter which way the wind is blowing if you dont know what port you are sailing to."

[Stensol]

OK, seems like this thread is running its course now. It's a real privilege to get detailed technical information here in the PVP Forum from forward-thinkers like agapit and altius. You active vaulters out there - especially you pups growing up in the "information age" - should feel fortunate that you have access to such a pool of knowledge. I know I would have loved it in my day!

Agapit relates indirectly that vaulters can even reap benefits by incorporating just some aspects of the 6.40 model into their technique. It seems like Isinbayeva is a perfect example of this. While her take-off doesn't conform to the 6.40 model, that take-off leg whip to the top hand is right on. I can't think of any other world-class female vaulter who even comes close to exploiting the recoil like she does. (I notice in another post that achtungpv thinks that Anna Rogowska will be the next woman over 5m - well, I hope for her sake that this happens, but another 8 inches is gonna be way tough for her with her current technique, since she isn't able to exploit the recoil much at all. She is absolutely top-notch on the runway though, so the tools are definitely there.)

Altius, you sure have a lot of patience in repeating the key concepts of BTB on this Forum and probably elsewhere over and over and over again. And there I have it right in front of my face when you say that it is beneficial to "incorporate more elements of the Bubka model in [one's] technique". Yeah, I'm with you there: It's not all or nothing, right? OK, I've got some homework to do...uh, guess I'll start by reading BTB (all right, you busted me! ).

I'm getting it now. The key is to exploit the recoil as much as possible. We're talking great timing with an energy-enriched pole whose weight spec is way over the vaulter's weight. A major catapult effect is the obvious goal, 'cause that's the only way to truly maximize push-off. From any damn grip height.

So that's the effect that's desired, and there are lots of theories about how best to achieve this effect. I think I'll go with the 6.40 model, or better yet, I'll take the pragmatic approach of altius and support that attempting to "jump like Bubka" is a great way for any vaulter to improve. I think I've just come out of retirement.

[IndyCoach]

First time I have read this post, and I coppied quite a bit of it and printed it for my vaulters to read! Thank you for putting this back at the top!

[Mecham]

You have to admit becca... people do like this one

[rainbowgirl28]

I am not making any threads in this forum sticky, unless I make a post with links to good threads.