Here's one to peruse, why not a longer pole?

[achtungpv]

How about a model where the athlete plants the pole, then continues to run another couple of strides while bending the pole in the box, adding more energy all the time, then jumps up and allows the pole to take him to a new theoretical max height?

Wow. any old school guy's will remember "mr pole vault" from the vaultworld board. His coach called this pre-bending the pole, akin to a pre-jump i guess. who knew he was just a few years too early with his model...

[souleman]

Ashcraft, how much taller and how much faster? Back to physics, (and I think there might be an answer in here somewhere) take an 18 foot pole, and a 6' guy, how fast would he have to be to get the pole vertical?Then do the formula for a 19' and then a 20' pole. If we think about it, in 60 years the world record has only increased by 5' something. And yet look at the improvement in equipment, training, coaching and of course, models. Put into percentage perspective, that's a 25% increase. Something very small and different than the present is going to get that next foot or two. When Seagren was doing 17'6", the vault community said 18' feet was physically and humanly impossible. Never mind 20 plus feet. I'm not smart enough to play with the physics, but some of you are. My contribution to this equation is a pole that is 3", 6" 1', or 2' longer. Let's do our best to figure this out. I want you guys to think past what you know is true. What's true and factual today was not in1954or 1968.Somebody had to figure it out. Later..........Mike

[altius]

QUOTE Wow. any old school guy's will remember "mr pole vault" from the vaultworld board. His coach called this pre-bending the pole, akin to a pre-jump i guess. who knew he was just a few years too early with his model...[/quote]

The objective of the 'pre jump' is to take off WITHOUT bending the pole before you leave the ground - what is being proposed is antithetical to that.

I suspect that Victor Chystiakov (World Junior Champion in 1994 with 5.70) - presently training in Adelaide (as is Dimitri Markov) - came closer to the human model required to jump 21' - than anyone else i have heard of. At 6'7" he was/is?? faster than Dima in any distance over 20 metres and when it looked as though he was going places - he jumped 5.90m in 1999 (5.95 in a street meet) Steve Chappell made him some 5.50m poles. Unfortunately the wheels fell off his career for a while and only now is he trying to get back on track. Sadly Im not sure if he can now make it to the level he might have reached.

[Carolina Extreme]

How about using the same length, say 5m, poles and use the bending of the pole as a cocking mechanism. Then when the pole hits vertical...POW!... HANG ON BABY!!! It should have some sort of booster rocket kit installed in the lower portion of the pole that would telescope out an additional maybe five feet.... really fast. The down side is it may also leave you laying in the box with no arms. LOL

Isn't it in the rules for poles.... any length or material? LOL Sorry guy's, my warped sense of humor couldn't resist. After all you did say, "think outside the box". That pretty much sums me up. LOL

Rusty

[VTechVaulter]

wow this whole thread screams read a physics book

(sorry, these things bother us engineers)

[PaulVaulter]

I thought the idea was to think outside the box, thus ideas that may not be possible due to current thought in physics?

For the record, there is no guarantees that we know everything there is to know about physics, so one of these methods may prove to come true eventually.........

looking at it mathematically though:

The pole to lift you must provide a force greater than your weight

F > mass x gravity

therefore to bend the pole into the box the friction produced must be greater than this force

friction = coefficient of friction x Reactive force > mass x gravity

as mass and reactive force are equal for people stood on the ground we therefore have to create a coefficient of friction greater than 9.81, though probably more like 16 if you want a fastish recoil. This would then allow you to get close enough to the box with a big bend then jump to get on top of the bend and ride it up.

I am by no ways saying this is the way to vault, especially seeing as i think the only way to get a coefficient of 16 is with superglue, but if you put enough insane ideas out there surely one might have some practical use. Also, maybe there will be a new type of pole made in the furure that will actually require a different technique to utilize? Maybe there will be a pole designed specifically for the 'pre-bending' method? Who knows?

[Barto]

Incidentally are folk suggesting that pushing off the top of the pole cannot help you jump higher??

Actually, yes "folk" are suggesting that very thing. You cannot jump, nor has anyone ever actually jumped higher by pushing off the top of the pole. The illusion of the vaulter pushing off the top is caused by the mechanical path the shoulder, elbow, and wrist joints dictate that the arms follow as the vaulter swings off the top of the pole. I reality the vaulter is moving too fast through this motion for any "pushing" forces to effectively be used.

[Skyin' Brian]

wow this whole thread screams read a physics book

(sorry, these things bother us engineers)

weird. next time i ride a train ill have to ask the dude in the funny hat his feelings

but yeah, if F=MA and E=MC^2 then i think you need to change your vector to allow for...the specs on the rotary for the girder.

if what you mean is that all you will ever be able to get our of a pole is 100% of the energy that you put into it, then if our current poles approach that ammount of efficiency, then we are farily close to the best possible equipment.

pole climbing is already illegal, so other ways to gain that extra grip height dont really seem too feasible with the current poles.

i do like the idea of a prebent pole(poles are already prebent slightly) but a prebent pole wouldnt get to vertical. maybe like a bow(like for shooting arrows, we need to have a string holding the pole in a prebent manner. run, plant the really long pole already bent say it is prebent to about 120 degrees, allowing a much higer effective grip. you bend it to 90(or further i guess) while releasing the "string" and your pole goes to vertical completely unbending. bang. really high grip, planting and carrying would be tough, so maybe the push plant would be the way to go. this sounds like cheating because some of the energy put in is not from the approach/jump. if mechanical poles are illegal, then this is a no go.

in conclusion--run faster and you will jump higher. i would mention the thing about being taller, but im afraid it is too late for many of us in that regard

[altius]

Barto - when you respond bear in mind that I am/was merely a teacher and erstwhile coach, not a biomechanist nor a physicist, so you will have to use words of one syllable.

It just seems to me that as long as a vaulter is connected to a pole -which is in turn connected to the ground - it is possible for them to apply force to that pole no matter how fast they are moving. If would seem that if that force is applied in the right direction it can cause a vertical acceleration of the center of mass of the vaulter - which in turn can drive it higher. But I am happy to learn something new about this complex event so I would appreciate it if you could explain why this is not possible. Remember - keep it simple.

I would also appreciate it if you could tell me at precisely what point you believe a vaulter of say Bubka's calibre finishes applying force to the pole.

Oh and does this point at which the application of force ends, vary with the performance level of the athlete? In other words, if they are not moving very fast on the top of the pole can they apply force to the pole or not?

[Mecham]

We can agree that a human has limits right? To a point i should say.
Technology on the other hand, can become advanced and more advanced everyday. So, I think the way to get onto a longer pole, or jump a few feet higher is in our technical model, or our technical pole.
A new type of pole should be invented. We had stiff poles before, then poles that bent. Why not have a pole that can bend in more than one spot at different times, and then recoil accordingly, or at the same time. Maybe a new type of material should be used. Would it have to have a soft feel and strong recoil? for example, (dumb example, but an example at that.) In the movie "Batman Begins" Our hero has a cape. That cape, im not sure what it is called, but it is very soft like cloth, then can contract and become very hard, to which he can hang glide, or something like that. How does that work? Is it possible? is there already material like that?

Thinking out of the box, just so you know.

[souleman]

OK, to add a little fuel to the fire. Is it our assumption then, that in order to get on a taller pole, the pole has to allow it to be so? Are we saying that increased heights will only be made possible if the equipment is improved or made differently? I was kind of hoping we might explore something on the human side that might make this accomplishment possible. Like I said, I have absolutely no ideas as to how we might get this to happen. That's why I'm throwing it out for this discussion, which by the way, has been very good and it shows we are all thinking about a way to create the next "Fosberry Flop". Just think about it, what do you think the coaches of the time thought about the Fosberry flop. And, before anyone had seen it, what do you think those coaches thoughts would have been if someone had proposed high jumping in that fashion. I'm guessing it would have been much the same as we're seeing here in regards to "a longer pole". Ooooh, I do like to stir the pot now don't I? No malice intended, trust me, I just want us to think! Later.........Mike

[Mecham]

or jump a few feet higher is in our technical model