Here's one to peruse, why not a longer pole?

[Skyin' Brian]

would there be a way to create a pole that gives you more energy back that you gave to it in the first place? that could possibly make it easier to bend a longer pole and still not have it be as soft as a noodle when the pole returns. is this at all possible?

im probably going to get shut down pretty quickly on this one. lets just say physics and science in general arent my thing.

yeah, its quite simple really. Just wear a really heavy helmet; I'm thinking like 20lbs. Charge down the runway with a pole ~20lbs heavier than usual. take off. As you invert, your helmet(which conviently is not strapped on) falls off and you catch the ride like a vaulter 20lbs lighter than the dude that planted the pole. I think you would get catapult effects similar to bubka's imfamous 601 World Champion jump.

All you really have to do is train full time with this 20lb helmet and you would eventually make up the lost stength and speed. the helmet also raises your center of gravity allowing a higher takeoff.

test this out and let me know how it goes

[dj]

hello

the amount of force applied correctly at the takeoff and the bending/flexible qualities of the pole are the two things that determine grip. if the forces only allow a 17' grip there isn't a need for a longer pole.

but skot is on the right track... a more flexible pole that will bend and not break will be the "pole of the future"

note: the pole is not a rocket! there is no hanging on for the ride..
height above hand grip is determined by swing "force" or by "inversion" force.. ( if inversion is the term you want to use for the time from takeoff to the point of releasing form the pole.)

there is no real way to answer this question since 90% of the coaches and vaulters still feel the pole is a catapult. .... it is not...it is a tool that allows the vaulter to shorten a radius (two pendulum system) so that it is easier to "move" that radius to vertical and swing the body above that ending radius/grip.

if you go back through history even before fiberglass the bending of the pole allowed some jumpers to hold higher and jump higher.. bamboos advantage was it was flexible.. it's disadvantage was it would break, especially with the large bodies of the american vaulters... swedish steel would "flex' more than the old aluminum poles...


dj

[skola28]

Barto, I totally agree that many times extra effort put into the vault basically ends up wasting a lot of the stored energy already saved up...

But your generality that any effort after the takeoff is meaningless really is limited. You cited the force plate readings which basically only take into account the pressure exerted against the ground over the time interval of the jump, but what you failed to realize is that swinging your body into a vertical position gains you valuable energy (ROTATIONAL KINETIC ENERGY which is NOT picked up by a force plate since force plates only detect PRESSURE, ie: linear force). That rotational effect also positions your body in a very efficient position to clear the bar. This position also allows for the minimal 'push off' energy which we both agreed is small compared to the energy gained from takeoff.

Don't think I'm totally disagreeing with you, and I hope no vaulters think that working hard to get a good pushoff will make them jump higher... b/c it probably won't. When the time comes to worry about your pushoff, you will most likely be writing posts about polevault efficiency, not reading them.

SKOT-

There are ways of 'gaining' energy but they become illegal really quickly. You could simply use an electric telescoping pole or an electrically controlled actuator which would stiffen the pole at a press of a button etc. Obviously things that add energy to your vault are illegal and will always be illegal. No way around it. Skyin' Bryan has an idea there though... But I'm sure it woudn't be long before they put an end to that too! Did you know they used to use dumb-bell-like objects to get ridiculous long jump marks? They would swing these weights out in front of themselves and then push off on them at the same time dropping the weights... It was outlawed to the delight of tall skinny long jumpers everywhere

[SKOT]

yeah, its quite simple really. Just wear a really heavy helmet; I'm thinking like 20lbs. Charge down the runway with a pole ~20lbs heavier than usual. take off. As you invert, your helmet(which conviently is not strapped on) falls off and you catch the ride like a vaulter 20lbs lighter than the dude that planted the pole. I think you would get catapult effects similar to bubka's imfamous 601 World Champion jump.

All you really have to do is train full time with this 20lb helmet and you would eventually make up the lost stength and speed. the helmet also raises your center of gravity allowing a higher takeoff.

test this out and let me know how it goes

I know the NCAA has rules against this. I'm also guessing that the IAAF does then as well.

Page 79 Rule 6-1 Article 8.

Jumping Aids
ARTICLE 8. Weights or artificial aids shall not be allowed in the jumping
events except a wind sock to help the competitor determine wind direction
and velocity, and a foot pattern to indicate placement of takeoff mark in the
jumping events.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2005/ ... _rules.pdf

[Skyin' Brian]

yeah, its quite simple really. Just wear a really heavy helmet; I'm thinking like 20lbs. Charge down the runway with a pole ~20lbs heavier than usual. take off. As you invert, your helmet(which conviently is not strapped on) falls off and you catch the ride like a vaulter 20lbs lighter than the dude that planted the pole. I think you would get catapult effects similar to bubka's imfamous 601 World Champion jump.

All you really have to do is train full time with this 20lb helmet and you would eventually make up the lost stength and speed. the helmet also raises your center of gravity allowing a higher takeoff.

test this out and let me know how it goes

I know the NCAA has rules against this. I'm also guessing that the IAAF does then as well.

Page 79 Rule 6-1 Article 8.

Jumping Aids
ARTICLE 8. Weights or artificial aids shall not be allowed in the jumping
events except a wind sock to help the competitor determine wind direction
and velocity, and a foot pattern to indicate placement of takeoff mark in the
jumping events.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2005/ ... _rules.pdf

i really doubt it would work anyway. i love the longer pole idea though. i dont know how many times in high school or even college that a friend of mine would ask, why dont you just use a really long pole? classic.

[souleman]

I brought this subject up to actually discuss the (Oh man I hate this term...but) "outside the box" ideas. As I said, Petrov had to do this when he came up with his model. Case in point, I always thought the Russian vaulters with the pole sticking straight up in the air was the dumbest thing I ever saw. I, on the other hand thought Seagrens way of carrying the pole somewhat elevated in front but pretty much parallel to the ground with his arms pumping up and down as he ran down the runway was the way to go to get ultimate speed. In fact, after seeing a video of Bubba a while back, I even suggested that he consider doing the Seagren pumping up and down of the arms as he ran. That was before I got to the chapter in BTB about WHY the pole was carried (at least at the start of the run) straight up in the air. Segrens way, back in the 60's and early 70's WAS the model. So now we are in 2005, our assignment is,what would a vaulter have to do to make a 19' or 20' pole work? I've enjoyed this so far and I know there isn't an answer........right now anyway......cause frankly..........we haven't come up with one yet. Later........Mike

[PaulVaulter]

How about a model where the athlete plants the pole, then continues to run another couple of strides while bending the pole in the box, adding more energy all the time, then jumps up and allows the pole to take him to a new theoretical max height?

[skola28]

Thats actually not too far off from how my plant actually looks LOL! I take off WAY under and my shoulders are paying the price! That is a really interesting idea though... Develop a pole that would take that sort of deformation... I'm pretty sure it would take a LONG time for the pole to 'unbend' since it would return the same force you put into it... I'm guessing it would never totally unbend; maybe it wouldn't have to... Just a thought...

[Mecham]

How about a model where the athlete plants the pole, then continues to run another couple of strides while bending the pole in the box, adding more energy all the time, then jumps up and allows the pole to take him to a new theoretical max height?

Unless a pole was incredibly soft and gave a HUGE recoil. that wouldnt work. Its a really cool idea, and i think it would look cool. It seems like today, the look of the vault has a better show than a 20 foot jump ...

[ashcraftpv]

So now we are in 2005, our assignment is,what would a vaulter have to do to make a 19' or 20' pole work?

be about 3 or 4 feet taller or run a hell of a lot faster....

physics man! physics!

[altius]

How about a model where the athlete plants the pole, then continues to run another couple of strides while bending the pole in the box, adding more energy all the time, then jumps up and allows the pole to take him to a new theoretical max height?

.

Just make sure a funeral director is on hand - mind you he will probably first have to dig you out of the hole you make on landing - cause it wont be on the pad. Also dont tell your insurance company you are intending to do this.

You might want to read the "Bicycle pump" paper on Beginner to Bubka.com
This attempts to point out - perhaps for the first time, the implications of a big bend before you leave the ground.

Incidentally are folk suggesting that pushing off the top of the pole cannot help you jump higher??

[Mecham]

I measured that Bubka projected 4'7.5'' of the top of his pole on his 6.01m jump in athens (assuming that he cleared 21'). The question is, how do we make that 6' off the top? How do we build an enormous amount of energy (more than bubka used in his jump) for the 4th phase?