Pole Vault Manifesto

[ECvaulter30]

Where can you find solid literature on the 6.40 model? sorry if its a dumb question but the topics interesting and i've spent the past 2 days reading this thread

[KirkB]

Where can you find solid literature on the 6.40 model? sorry if its a dumb question but the topics interesting and i've spent the past 2 days reading this thread

There's no such thing as a dumb question on PVP. Yes, there's SOME dumb answers ... but no dumb questions!

You found one of the two main threads for the 640 Model. The other one is here - the "We are Doomed, Repent and Ask for Forgiveness" thread:
http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=11698&p=87498

The 640 Model is the philosophy and technical model of Roman Botcharnikov aka Agapit on PVP. He's been on a sabatical from PVP for over a year. Just about any post from him is based on his 640 Model, or his Theory of Continuous Motion paper, which he published in about 1992. This paper is absolutely spot on, and applies equally well to the 640 Model and the Petrov Model!

There's an article on NeoVault here http://www.neovault.com/article_launder1.asp that's written by Alan Launder aka Altius (not Agapit) which expounds Agapit's Continuous Chain concept.

Agapit's Continuous Chain paper is posted on Pole Vault Planet here http://polevaultplanet.com/content/the_continuous_chain_model_in_the_pole_vault. I first found a PDF of his paper ... which was published in Track Coach in Spring 1996 ... on the internet about 5 years ago ... but the link has disappeared.

I don't think you'll find any paper published re the 640 Model ... beyond what Agapit published on PoleVaultPower on this link and the Repent link.

By coincidence (unless that's what inspired you to research Agapit's work), Altius posted some excellent clarifications of the 640 Model on this thread http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19430&start=84 TODAY! If you've been reading about the 640 Model for the past 2 days, then you well know some of the misunderstandings and confusions surrounding it. I think Altius did a mighty fine job today of clearing up a few controversial issues surrounding it.

Also thanks to Kyle Ellis for pushing hard to seek the TRUTH about the 640 Model. Vaultman18 says he "got it", and I respect Vaultman's opinion ... and Altius' opinion ... very much.

Personally, I haven't fully "repented" yet ... I LOVE the Continuous Chain Theory and the Petrov Model ... and I'm only just BEGINNING to see the light re the 640 Model ... I have a ways to go yet.

Kirk

[ECvaulter30]

so the 640 is from agapit??? well now learn something new everyday..

i read the article on the continuous chain via neovault.. and so far from what all i've been reading i like the continuous chain and it seems the easiest to understand soo far.

Now i get to work on diving into the 640 model.. thank you kirk for all of the links and extra info

[ECvaulter30]

There's no such thing as a dumb question on PVP. Yes, there's SOME dumb answers ... but no dumb questions!

i see.. i knew that the advanced tech. forum said more or less "if your a high school vaulter its best not to comment on these threads," so i wasnt wanting to over step my boundaries and burn any PVP bridges haha

[KirkB]

There's no such thing as a dumb question on PVP. Yes, there's SOME dumb answers ... but no dumb questions!

i see.. i knew that the advanced tech. forum said more or less "if your a high school vaulter its best not to comment on these threads," so i wasnt wanting to over step my boundaries and burn any PVP bridges haha

If your PR is 14-8, then I think you can go into the Advanced forum and ask all the stupid questions you want. As long as you don't give stupid answers there!

You are probably qualified to give answers in the Beginner and Intermediate forums ... and the readers will judge how stupid they are ... or not.

Just my opinion.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

There's no such thing as a dumb question on PVP. Yes, there's SOME dumb answers ... but no dumb questions!

i see.. i knew that the advanced tech. forum said more or less "if your a high school vaulter its best not to comment on these threads," so i wasnt wanting to over step my boundaries and burn any PVP bridges haha

You get bonus points for actually reading the rules, half the people don't...

[ECvaulter30]

You get bonus points for actually reading the rules, half the people don't...

well from what i've learned so far if you dont follow the rules in polevault/PVP.. bad things happen

[ECvaulter30]

now to give a question on the topic.. in the repent discussion the agrument of left arm push to left arm pull has me confused.. i agree with not pushing (terribly hard habit to break) but when the left arm is used to stabilize and pull how long does the pull last? and through out what motions/stages, which ever you choose to call it, is the left arm pull being carried out?

also with the free take off in the 640 from how far out is the vaulter jumpin into the plant before the tip hits the back of the box? if that made sense

[KirkB]

These are actually excellent questions!

... in the repent discussion the agrument of left arm push to left arm pull has me confused.. i agree with not pushing (terribly hard habit to break) but when the left arm is used to stabilize and pull how long does the pull last?

The underlined part of your question has me confused, since stabilize and pull are 2 different things. When I say "stabilize", I mean side-to-side stabilization only ... not forwards-backwards stabilization. Forwards-backwards stabilization ... if that's your intent ... is tantamount to a push or a pull. I advocate neither. Mind you, this is just me.

The 640 Model advocates a pull ... and is mute on side-to-side stabilization (tho it's implied). The pull in the 640 Model is NOT the same as forwards-backwards stabilization. The purpose of side-to-side stabilization is merely to keep your balance, so that your body is driving and swinging directly forwards ... without any side-to-side imbalance.

The purpose of the pull in the 640 Model is NOT for stabilization ... it's to accelerate the swing. Just didn't want you to confuse the two.

... and through out what motions/stages, which ever you choose to call it, is the left arm pull being carried out?

I pass on this question. I will be interested to hear the answer to this by someone that has actually USED the 640 Model.

... also with the free take off in the 640 from how far out is the vaulter jumpin into the plant before the tip hits the back of the box?

Far enough out so that the pole doesn't hit the stopboard until the takeoff foot leaves the ground. The 640 Model is identical to the Petrov Model in this respect.

You cannot be leaning back, and you should ideally have a slight forwards lean ... so that you're jumping INTO the pole at a 18 degree angle (approx). It's hard to know exactly how much 18 degrees is when you're jumping, so you might want to judge it this way:

1. You'll know when you're jumping too high when your takeoff foot is BRAKING as you jump. Especially if you're PLANTING the heel of your takeoff foot ... like a high jumper or basketball dunker.

2. You'll know when you're jumping too shallow when get "picked off the ground" before you get a chance to JUMP.

I know you want me to tell you how far behind your top hand your takeoff foot should be (when you imitate your takeoff posture statically). But it's not that simple. Review what DJ says about the "impulse" on takeoff. Watch and listen to the Baggett vid where Rick talks about reaching as high as you possibly can just before takeoff. Even if your intent is as prescribed by Rick, how close to actually achieving your intent are you? Additional considerations are your takeoff SPEED and your exact body posture (angle of forwards lean) preference. I believe the correct answer must combine all of these considerations ... not just say (for example) "2" behind your top hand".

Kirk

[ECvaulter30]

These are actually excellent questions!

... in the repent discussion the agrument of left arm push to left arm pull has me confused.. i agree with not pushing (terribly hard habit to break) but when the left arm is used to stabilize and pull how long does the pull last?

The underlined part of your question has me confused, since stabilize and pull are 2 different things. When I say "stabilize", I mean side-to-side stabilization only ... not forwards-backwards stabilization. Forwards-backwards stabilization ... if that's your intent ... is tantamount to a push or a pull. I advocate neither. Mind you, this is just me.

Kirk

i probably should have started a new sentence for the stabilize comment.. i agree they are 2 different things and i guess the only way to "put it in perspective" would be the front to back..

and thank you for the explanation on the free take off and giving it more than the "2 behind the top hand" answer haha

[ECvaulter30]

over the past couple of week i have been trying to apply the "left arm pull" part of the 6.40 method to my vault..i started holding low with short runs on warmup poles.. then i started to work up to the top of my main pole. on all of the poles and hand holds i could definately tell that there was a difference in my swing and that i was getting inverted the right way. the only thing that was out of place is when i'm on my big pole and i do this my poles bend moves more to the left now (if that made sense). its not affecting my vault in any way that i can tell it has just freaked me out and i didnt know if this is normal when trying this method.. any insight?

[PVDaddy]

This is my first post on this forum. As a Father of a High School vaulter who just recently qualified for States but who has not shown any improvement from early in the season over the past few months.
I have been actively reading this forum for the past two weeks and must say that you experts have Really opened up my eyes to a much greater understanding of pole vault technique. For that I am forever greatful!
I have come to realize that my sons coaches although very knowledgeable and not bad vaulters either in there day and have coached some good vaulters, are really behind the curve with their old school methedologies.
With that in mind please allow me to humbly share my own personal observations and opinions.
In reguards to the 6.40 Model I think that it has already been demonstrated as much as humanly possible up to this point by Bubkas world record vault in 1997 and that it must be the basis and foundation for building on. We must continue to go back to it and disect it. After viewing it a thousand times I have come to the following conclusions.
1. His pole carry from verticle and gravity pole drop are without question. Is there any other way to make a pole lighter throughout the approach?
2. Free take off is essential. Did you notice how the pole actually bends the opposite way on plant which only proves that it has not made contact with the back of the box at plant and i would suspect somewere between 4 to 10 cm before the back. Its making contact at the bottom of the box thats why it bends the opposite way first. This allows for a free take off by allowing him to jump freely with greater plant angle and maximum stretch.
3. The left elbow should never be blocked but left bent, It acts only as a stabalizer and opens up the window of the pole to allow for an uninhibited trail leg swing.
4. Trailing leg swing must begin immediatley from the point of maximum stretch from the inverted C-position and this stretch takes place from the top hand all the way to the toe of the swing leg. It is physically impossible for any human to swing a leg that fast unless it is first stretched to the point of maximum. Natural muscle recoil (the rubber band effect) is what we have here. After elasticity has taken place the drive of the swing comes from the pulling effect of the top hand coupled with maximum effort of the lower abdominal region to shoot his leg upward toward the top hand. The bending at the hips at the end of the swing is essential because it cuts the distance of the parabala allowing him to get ahead of the unbending pole.
5. A violent left hand pull with the head flinging backward to add to the force of the pull is crucial and is in fact the most violent action Bubka makes in his whole vault! He is literaly throwing his elbow and back of his hand downward directly toward the bearing point of the pole. This is the key reason why he shoots off the end of his pole like none other. This occurs at exactly the moment that the ankle of his swing leg comes into view. This put him in such great position out ahead of the pole to allow him plenty of time for maximum push with the right hand to complete his launch at the maximum uncoiling point of the pole. The push off must be of course at maximum effort as well.
I personally could not find any passive action in his entire vault and if there is any I would suggest you look for that first in your attempt to create the Holy Grail 6.4 Model.