Pole Vault Manifesto

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Is 18ft vault possible for women

Poll ended at Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:12 pm

Yes
34
56%
No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

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agapit
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby agapit » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:42 pm

Tim McMichael wrote:Leaving aside these issues of social differences, my question concerning the fact that Bubka's record seems as safe as it has ever been embraces more than just the American coaches and athletes. Altius names a number of expert coaches who have embraced the Petrov model. This begs the question. Why haven't Parnov, Botcharnikov, Krysinski, Mark Stewart, Steve Rippon, or even Petrov himself produced a successor to Bubka? The fault for this cannot lie entirely with the shortcomings of the American system. Nobody else seems to be doing any better.


Tim just give us a little more time. It is still in my plans anyway and on the horizon. :)
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby golfdane » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:07 pm

agapit wrote:
Tim McMichael wrote:Leaving aside these issues of social differences, my question concerning the fact that Bubka's record seems as safe as it has ever been embraces more than just the American coaches and athletes. Altius names a number of expert coaches who have embraced the Petrov model. This begs the question. Why haven't Parnov, Botcharnikov, Krysinski, Mark Stewart, Steve Rippon, or even Petrov himself produced a successor to Bubka? The fault for this cannot lie entirely with the shortcomings of the American system. Nobody else seems to be doing any better.


Tim just give us a little more time. It is still in my plans anyway and on the horizon. :)


Wow, it's been a while :D

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:34 pm

On Aug 13, 2008 Agapit wrote:
agapit wrote: Bravo! See you all later!

agapit wrote: Tim just give us a little more time. It is still in my plans anyway and on the horizon. :)

Agapit, glad to hear that you haven't just been sitting on your laurels for the past 1 year 5 months and 16 days. ;)

Can't wait to hear what's on the horizon! :yes: ;)

Kirk
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby altius » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:48 am

Just a thought - Steve Hooker has made it to a reasonable level with only two coaches -Stewart and Parnov - who basically agreed on the model and who were in constant communication before Steve moved - only because he needed to train full time with a full time coach - something Dr. Mark Stewart simply could not be. He MAY challenge the WR IF he can stay healthy -but not bad from a country without any real system of development and with many the limitations I have previously detailed. Get everyone following the same model is a great thought - but I suspect completely impossible in the USA. Still let us follow Hollis and Niedermeyer and see what happens now.

Incidentally let us know if you really want to spend some time with Roman this summer - it might be possible.

Hope to see you in the summer Tim. :yes:
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby nielsalofsen » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:20 am

altius wrote:Get everyone following the same model is a great thought - but I suspect completely impossible in the USA.

Wait and see for what's going to happen in that tiny country next to Germany in the upcoming ten years...we will kickstart it in august Altius, when you come over for that clinic!
We got a few upcoming fresh coaches (Rens Blom & Christian Tamminga) working with their interpretation of the model. Just wait and see...

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:37 pm

The spread of ideas will never completely spread throughout and become unanimous in a country, especially one with as many opinions and free thinkers as the US. But in time when those with proper coaching continue to emerge as the top in their sport here in America, those who don't vault correctly will be free to do so, just not as high as the rest of us! And it will beg the question, how come everyone else is jumping so high?

So yes, it may be impossible for the ideas to completely spread here in America, but it doesn't need to go everywhere, just enough places so that everyone who doesn't vault correctly gets beat! Then, if you can't beat em, you join em.
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby altius » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:41 am

.we will kickstart it in august Altius, when you come over for that clinic! Is this going ahead??? Is there any chance of doing something in Denmark as well???? :D
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby RPVA03 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:23 pm

I don't think that any other vaulter has been able to match the technical ability of Bubka, well, minus Isinbayeva. I think that is the reason that some vaulters working on the Petrov model have not gone as high. You can be working on a technical model, but that does not mean you have mastered it. It takes a lot of time to MASTER a difficult skill like the pole vault. Some might have gotten close, such as Markov etc., but have not mastered it. You cannot just say that because there has been no one able to beat Bubka that the model is bunked. There are plenty of novice vaulters out there that use the Petrov model, and perform better as a result. You can't say that just because they are using that model that they should be able to beat Bubka's record.

Look at the 10,000 hour rule where in order to completely master a skill, you must put in 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. Now, that adds up to 4 hours a day, every day, for 10 years. Most pole vaulters never get there because they start when they are too old and their body deteriorates before they can reach 10,000 hours. That is A LOT of pole vaulting, most peoples bodies simply cannot handle that. Perhaps Bubka had 10,000 hours or more of deliberate practice under his belt, maybe not. But, I wonder how many other vaulters have logged in as many hours as him, especially when working on the correct technical model for the ENTIRE time. (Remember, it takes a ton of practice to switch technical models.)

Before we hold the coaches completely accountable, and ask why they have not produced any vaulters better than Bubka, we must consider the discipline of the vaulter. Do they have what it takes to work hard enough to master said skill. Coaches can show an athlete the door, but they must walk through it. Also, does the vaulter have the physical parameters necessary to compete at that level? One can put in the practice time necessary to master the motions of the vault, but if their body is not capable of producing the ballistic muscle force, they will not be able to compete with someone who can produce that force and has also mastered the motions.

Luck also comes into play. Athletes must be lucky enough to find themselves in a situation where an excellent coach who is teaching the correct model can guide them. They must also have the resources and equipment necessary to take them to that level.

I think it is very important to take all these factors into account before negating a technical model that is so biomechanically sound/superior because no one has been able to match a world record. Remember, Isinbayeva has been pushing the women’s record higher by mastering this technical model.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby golfdane » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:25 am

Well stated RPVA03!

There might be plenty of vaulters CAPABLE of reaching the level of Bubka (fast and athletic enough), or even go beyond that, but is lacking the vital resources like dedication, equipment, facilities, coaching and management (one that's interested in cultivating the talent rather than harvesting fast rewards).

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby altius » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:00 pm

"Athletes must be lucky enough to find themselves in a situation where an excellent coach who is teaching the correct model can guide them. They must also have the resources and equipment necessary to take them to that level."

That was the theme of Chapter Three in BTB2. Having worked as a visiting coach in the highlands of Papua New Guinea and having taken athletes to train at Formia I had no doubts about the importance of getting the coaching context right if you want to maximise performance. That is not always possible for many reasons - PNG is an example of this.

Access to poles apart, to me the major limitation in the USA is the fact that athletes have to switch coaches up to three times in their career. This means that progress may be two steps forward and one back - unless the coaches accept and apply the same technical model. Despite great improvements in recent times that still seems to be a long way off.

However one of the objectives of BTB was to suggest that if ORDINARY athletes begin to apply SOME elements of the Petrov/Bubka model they can improve their performance. :yes:
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby golfdane » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:53 pm

altius wrote:However one of the objectives of BTB was to suggest that if ORDINARY athletes begin to apply SOME elements of the Petrov/Bubka model they can improve their performance. :yes:


AND vault safely, and have a great time doing so.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:59 pm

golfdane wrote:AND vault safely, and have a great time doing so.

:yes:

It's actually EASIER to vault with the Petrov Model, once you've trained for it and learned it. Everything FLOWS so HARMONIOUSLY ... in one continuous motion ... when you do it right. What can be more fun and rewarding than that?

Oh ... and you jump HIGHER too! ;)

Kirk
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