Qivana

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Divalent
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Another thread about the stuff dj sells [split]

Unread postby Divalent » Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:34 am

vault3rb0y wrote:Maybe it does have some benefits, but before we start suggesting it in training forums for young athletes i think we should all do some non-biased research. Not to disgard your opinion, but you ARE a sales rep for the product now so i would like to research it myself.


I absolutely agree. I went to the website that DJ linked below, and all I can say is that it just *SCREAMS* pseudoscience. If any company tells you that you have to "cleanse" your system of "toxins" (and they have a product to sell to you so you can do it), it is a sure sign they either don't understand how the body works, or (more likely) they are trying to BS you into giving them money (or both). In any event, the company has all the hallmarks of WOO (http://www.skepdic.com/woowoo.html).

If their products works, if their claims have merit, they should give you the citation for the double blind clinical trial that was published in a quality peer review journal that support those claims. Not some internal company report, not a product promotional brochure, not something distributed only by email. Something that would at least show up in a pubmed search.

If you search pubmed for "creatine AND exercise", you will hit on 3,236 scientific publications. "Creatine" alone hits on 42,000. "(Gynostemma OR pentaphyllum) AND exercise" hits on exactly zero (0) publications. Same with "King's Crown AND exercise" and "Crown Herb AND exercise": zero scientific publications in pubmed. Not a one. Nada. Zippo.

So where is the evidence that these products may be just as good as creatine but without the side effects? Creatine is a compound that our body makes and is in the food we eat. We know exactly how it works: where it is, what reactions it participates in, what enzymes work on it, and what role it plays in energy utilization in muscle cells. We know where it is synthesized, how it is metabolized, and how it is excreted. We know exactly how creatine produces it effects. IOW, we know the biochemistry of creatine!

These herbs are NOT naturally found in our bodies nor are they commonly found in our food. Where is the data (published in a peer reviewed article) that shows these products are safe? Where is the data (published in a peer reviewed article) that shows these products are effective? Where is the data that shows what the active ingredients are and how they are supposed to work? How do they give you more stamina? How do they increase your endurance? How do they "support" (there's a WOO term for you!) your liver, spleen, thymus and stomach? (And what does that mean, *exactly*?) How does it lower your blood sugar? (and as an athlete, do you really want your blood sugar lowered below what your body sets it at? I mean, you perform using blood suger! Does this make *ANY* sense?) How exactly does it act as an anti-inflamatory? How exactly does it "boost" (there's another WOO term for you!) your adrenal health? (And what exactly does *that* mean?)

As far as I can tell, we can't answer any of these questions. And without those answers, and at a minumum an *assurance* that these products are safe, is it really a good thing to be recommending that high school and college kids take these? REALLY?

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby dj » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 pm

Good morning,

Well… obviously you didn’t do any investigations at all before you made your defamatory/discrediting comments AND you didn’t even feel it necessary to PM me for links to the thousands of pages of scientific validations..

I guess this is the down side of a forum like PVP.. anyone can say anything as the “truth”(technical and other wise) or fact and choose not to back it up. That’s your choice… and readers have the choice of believing who they think is the best “writer” factual or not.

It was a mistake to even post this on here… I didn’t post to help my business I posted to help pole vaulters and the pole vault. The athletes that are on the products are getting the results..

For those that want to know and have already PM’ed me I will email you the links….

I will no longer check my PM’s so if anyone wants to contact me for technique or training info they can do so by emailing. davidfjohnston@yahoo.com

dj

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby kcvault » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:29 pm

These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."


Although the FDA is a good approval to have they will approve things only when it profits them most. This is why the FDA does not like to approve natural supplements, herbs and things you can get your hands on with out having to buy (if they had sole rights to the profit I'm sure it would be approved very quickly). Remember the Chinese have practiced medicine for 5000 years our medicine is relatively new (about 150 years). I do not suggest taking supplements but I do suggest proper nutrition and eating the foods that produce the results you are looking for. (proper nutrituion should include things such as herbs.)

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:08 am

Proper nutrition is nutrition that is proven to help you in growth and development! The thing with nutrition is, you have to STUDY it to prove it is effective! Just because it is natural does not make it effective. Otherwise you could go eat dirt, because thats pretty natural too. Maybe that will increase your stamina.

The chinese practiced medicine almost entirely based off the placebo effect and by assuming false cause-effect relationships like "WooTang was sick. WooTang Ate bark from special bamboo tree. WooTang got better!" Completely ignoring the confounder and trend of people getting better regardless of treatment. I realize this is a huge simplification, but this happens all the time, not just in Ancient China! Especially once someone THINKS something will help them, most of the time it will! This does just apply to medicine, but in the vault too.

It's true, people can say whatever they want on here, and people will only believe who they want to. I would only suggest (as would the entire scientific community) that you believe those which back up their scientific claims with scientific evidence.
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Re: Creatine

Unread postby kcvault » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:04 pm

My real point was not to dismiss somthing based on FDA aproval. Have you ever noticed when buying different types of treatments there will be like 10 different products that say can be used as a treatment. The most exspensive one is always the one with the FDA aproval even though there will often be one with the exact same ingrediants at a third the price. Also I am saying if somthing has been shown to be effective over a long period of time in a way it has been studied. Not saying anything about this product jusk asking that you keep an open mind to other things.

Of course all of the things this suplement claims to do (except anti inflamatory) can be acomplished by exersize. It would be hard to tell if these were an effect of lifestyle change or of the supplement. Someone who has chosen to take the suplement likly made a consious decision to try and improve there health as well.

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby Divalent » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:36 am

kcvault wrote:Although the FDA is a good approval to have they will approve things only when it profits them most. This is why the FDA does not like to approve natural supplements, herbs and things you can get your hands on with out having to buy (if they had sole rights to the profit I'm sure it would be approved very quickly). Remember the Chinese have practiced medicine for 5000 years our medicine is relatively new (about 150 years). I do not suggest taking supplements but I do suggest proper nutrition and eating the foods that produce the results you are looking for. (proper nutrituion should include things such as herbs.)

The FDA will only approve a drug if the company asks them to. To get approval they must first show it is safe, and then effective. Unless you get approval from the FDA, you cannot market a drug (or compound or herb or anything!) for use in the human body based on a claim that will cause a physiological effect or treat a disease or condition. That explains why herbal "remedies" dance around the issue, by first using vague language about what they might do ("boost your immune system" "cleanse you of toxins" "enhance your liver" "increase stamina"; i.e., all scientifically vacuous claims) and couple that with the FDA disclaimer (which denies that they are claiming any effect).

A company is welcome to apply for FDA approval for any herbal "remedy" they might uncover, but most don't bother. Very few herbal compounds that have tried to run the FDA gauntlet have succeeded, mostly because they are ineffective. And so it is generally more profitable for a company to just market it by make vague claims based on anecdotes, appeals to outmoded medical models, etc, and then disclaim it all! in tiny print to avoid FDA shutting them down. But the standards for approval are the same for an herbal "remedy" as any other drug; quality scientific evidence that it is safe and effective. The potential for profit by the company is NOT a factor in the FDA decision. (and the FDA gets no cut of the profits.)

"Traditional Chinese medicine" (and "traditional native american medicine", etc) is, for the most part, mythological bunk. Read a book on that 5000 year old traditional chinese medicine and you will learn nothing about how the human body works. Worse, you will learn false things about how the body works. They never discovered the germ theory for the basis of diseases, never discovered the cellular basis for life, etc. Western medical tradition goes back nearly as far, and yet for the most part we've realized that we (and they) had it all wrong. Yes, a fair number of useful drugs have been found in plants around the world, and many pre-modern cultures have stumbled upon local plants that have something useful, and have used them to effectively treat some conditions, but the number of such examples are extremely rare. Ask the chinese if they would trade their recent western-modeled medical system for their old "traditional" one. Indeed, name one medical condition where *you* would prefer to be treated by a traditional chinese shaman.

BTW, "medicinal herbs" are just plants; plants that happen to make one or more compounds that have physiological effects in our bodies. Why to they make them? Because they are trying to poison us, so we won't eat them (so they can continue to live and reproduce). Evolution favors chemicals that specifically interfere with one or more biochemical reactions in our bodies; the more specific they are, the less the plant has to make to be effective. Until you know what compound is in an herb, and what it targets, and what the safe doses are, eating "herbs" as a general health advice is foolish. (This is not like just recommending that you eat your lettuce.) And that does double for recommending it for a specific purpose in our youth.

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby kcvault » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:13 am

I am by no means telling anyone to take a supplement of any kind. If you are not getting the things your body needs from the foods you are eating you are not eating the right foods. IMO few drugs or supplements are even necessary weather FDA approved or not. The media helps create symptoms for the drugs they are selling. Before taking anything I would hope you did a lot of research on the product. I am simply saying that an open mind should still be kept. For example I know that spicy foods, or drinking warm water helps sooth a sore throat. However the FDA did not go out and put an approval on all spicy foods claiming this, my water does not have a FDA approval that says when warmed can help sooth sore throats.

No matter what you do you are going to get the best result by getting the essentials of what your body needs from food. For example you will get a lot better result from eating an orange a day then taking a vitamin c pill everyday.

---Kasey

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:33 pm

This could probably be broken into a separate "Nutrition and supplementation" thread to discuss what is really necessary for growth and survival.

I like your point on evolution- the way i see it, plants either makes things that can be used by our body, or things that cannot (poisons, cellulose, etc). The things that can be used by our bodies usually happen to help the plant grow as well- sugars, vitamins, minerals, and water. Our bodies evolved eating the ENTIRE plant (or animal for that matter) and not by picking out certain compounds within the plant. The same goes for our meat. However, these were in times when our needs for survival were not as demanding as the demands we put on our bodies to reach our peak physical capabilities in a very specific manner. So although our bodies are EXTREMELY versatile and flexible, by supplying it with the correct ingredients at the right time, we become even more athletic. But just keep in mind that there have been studies comparing the effects of giving someone ALL the equivalent vitamins, minerals, carbohydrates, waters, etc in an apple, versus giving them an ACTUAL apple, and there are more positive effects from the apple than from the ingredients alone. This suggests that either there is a mental component to well being that accompanies eating an apple, or that there are plenty of unknown yet helpful ingredients in an apple that we have yet to discover, or both.
Point is, you can get ONLY the known, positive effects from a supplement or you can be ALL the positive, somewhat unknown effects of the food itself. But don't be fooled by the supplements using big words to sound good, when in fact it can be an elaborate hoax to steal your money. Reading through some of the papers on these herbs, some of the terminology is clearly false and slanted toward making uneducated people buy the product. The mushrooms they say help immune strength are cited as having "special chemicals" called "polysaccharides" that naturally filter harmful biotics to protect the mushroom. They are going on a theory that a mushroom with their biotics will essentially be a vaccine for any biotics the mushroom may have in it, because the "polysaccharides" hold the biotics for your immune system to recognize. This is wrong on so many levels, that i just stopped reading.
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Re: Supplement & Athlete Health

Unread postby dj » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:43 pm

good morning

It is impossible to present this product without coming off as a “used car” salesman.. but everyone on the plant should be using it.

Google Probiotic… this is the number one, by 80/100%, probiotic in the world. Quarantined to put one billion good bacteria into your lower intestine and this is where 80% of your immune system does it’s work!!!!!!

i don't think there is a real doctor in the world that would tell anyone to NOT use a probiotic.. any doctors on here please post your thoughts...

i'm not beyond being proven wrong... i'm from Arkansas, next to Missouri the "show me state"... you have to REALLY show me...

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Naturopathic physician Marcus Laux recommends natural solutions whose efficacy and safety have been researched and proven in clinical tests

Marcus Laux, ND
A naturopathic physician who earned his doctorate from the National College of Naturopathic Medicine in Portland, Dr. Marcus Laux has been clinically trained in acupuncture and homeopathy in addition to his training as a physician. After 15 years in private practice, Dr. Laux left his office to begin a worldwide search for natural medicines. After trekking the South and Central American jungles, Siberian steppes and Mediterranean laboratories, he found Bionorica, makers of natural medicines in Europe.

Dr. Laux has been seen on CNN, BBC, and Fox channels in an advisory capacity. He has served as chairman of several scientific advisory boards and is the co-author of Natural Woman, Natural Menopause (Harper Collins) and Top Ten Natural Therapies (Basic Health Publications).

Why aren’t well-researched, scientifically proven herbal products more widely used in the U.S.?

Laux: Considering today’s insurance reimbursement policies and strong pharmaceutical lobby, it isn’t too surprising. Synthetic drugs are promoted to doctors and consumers as universal cure-alls for everything from colds and coughs to cancer. But many people are now looking for natural, gentle, safe alternatives, especially for children.

So why aren’t more patients using them?

Laux: People have lost confidence in herbal products. When natural products first started to gain in popularity, generic versions quickly followed. Most people did not know the difference between well-researched, clinically-proven products and those of inferior quality, so they brought the cheaper labels. When these generics did not deliver on their promises and quality issues started to be widely reported, people became disillusioned.

Isn’t it the responsibility of physicians to educate their patients?

Laux: Most U.S. physicians simply not aware of the growing body of scientific evidence about the efficacy of herbal and natural products. The good news is, that’s changing. Younger physicians and pharmacists, in particular, are moving towards a more “integrated” approach to medicine, using a blend of alternative and conventional therapies.

What role do you think a European company such as Bionorica can play in the U.S. market?

Laux: Bionorica surpasses all U.S.-based companies with regard to its scientifically researched herbal products. By their very nature and design, Bionorica’s products are a unique category. I believe the Bionorica's entry into the U.S. market could stimulate the development of a whole new class of effective, safe and proven natural supplements. This is my dream as well.
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dj
http://www.myqivana.com/dfj
352-642-2894

ps.. Please Google all of these.. it will be worth the 30 minutes of your time...

Probiotic – patented “Trisphere” delivery system.
Crown Herb (Gynostemma pentaphyllum)
White Korean Ginseng
Chinese Skullcap (Scutellaria Baicalenisis)
Detox - heavy metals
Modified Citrus Pectin

Dr. Marcus Laux
Dr. Isaac Eliaz
Dr. Donald K. Layman – Illinois State University

None of these gentleman would kill there career or reputation with a non-validated “medicine.

Dr. Joseph P. Pagano, MD – Head of Pain Management and Addiction Medicine at Shands, University of Florida, Hospitol. [
i]Dr. Pagano would not destroy his career or loss his job over non-validated medicine.[/i]

Dr. Richard Wright, MD-Lake City, Flordia –
Dr. Wright would not jeopardize his 12,000 patient practice or his reputation on a non-validated product.

Derek Hall CEO –
Mr. Derek Hall would not build a company or represent a product that has no integrity. He would not jeopardize his standing with the Federal Trade Commission or in the Heath supplement world with a company or product that wasn’t the best of the best and validated.

These products are awesome and will save lives. You will live longer and healthier by using these products, and I’m sure if these products are used correctly and religiously that when we die it will be from something other than cancer.

And I have seen, personally, the training and performing results for athletes.

Merry Christmas and a very happy new year..... :star: :rose: :rose: :D

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Re: Creatine

Unread postby dj » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:58 pm

duplicate
Last edited by dj on Sun Jan 03, 2010 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Blessing to old guys and gals...

Unread postby dj » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:18 pm

Hello,

This is what Bubba had to say about the Qivana products, back in October.

From: Doug Sparks <polevaulter@msn.com>
Subject: Re: good morning
To: "David Johnston" <davidfjohnston@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 3:24 PM

Hi DJ. Off to Australia today and I jump on Sunday. I have used the product consistently since you gave it to me and the biggest things I see or feel different are that I seem to have more energy, better endurance, but most importantly, less cramping and muscle stiffness. You know how the next day your muscles can kind of have "catches" in them as you go to open up your stride length? I don’t really have those anymore and that is a HUGE plus. If you want you can take this info and write it into something more detailed and I will approve it for your use. The only semi-negative is that the orange stuff doesn’t mix that well but since it tastes really good that doesn’t bother me. LOL!! I'll have email once I arrive on Friday morning. Thanks!! Bubba

Hopefully you will be able to add that these comments came from a World Championship medalist by Tuesday!!


by the way the herbs are not mixed in water.. they are used as a "pixie stick" and are "bitter sweet" like cool aid...

Even though Bubba is a friend of mine.. I want you to know and understand that he used the product without any obligation to me or the company. He is not a part of my team or the Company as a whole. These comments were unsolicited and un-biased. I knew from day one Bubba would be perfect to compare to the results I was getting in Germany.

I know how he trains and some of the issues we all have to address as athletes and/or “masters’ athletes and I knew if it didn’t work for him the product was notwhat it was reported to be.

I’m proud to say it works and has no medical side effects…

dj

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Re: A Blessing to old guys and gals...

Unread postby Bubba PV » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:20 pm

I stand by those statements and have been very pleased with the product. Bubba
Bubba Sparks - www.bubbapv.com

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