Pole Vault Manifesto

[IAmTheWalrus]

I have two suggestions for why this might be.

The first is the Pareto principle, which basically states that 80% of your objective can be achieved with 20% of the work, and the remaining 20% requires 80% of the work. Bubka, to my understanding, put in 100%, and absolutely perfected this technique. If you think about most elite vaulters today, you can usually think of one or two little things that they may be doing wrong. A lot of vaulters let that trail leg bend during takeoff and during the swing, something that Bubka did rarely if ever. I think the culture of training in America is much different than it was in the Soviet Union, and so while many coaches and athletes here will be mostly concerned about the result (height) and often rationalize small flaws (usually dismissed as stylistic) instead of perfecting the total jump. I know that I will never achieve the level of Bubka, if for no other reason than because I like to have fun pole vaulting, and applying the incredibly strict discipline needed to perfect the model would spoil the sport for me. I just want to be as good as possible, while still enjoying it.

The other reason, in my opinion, was that Bubka was a master of applying his athletic ability to the pole vault. He may not have been the fastest or most explosive vaulter, but I bet he was the fastest most explosive vaulter while holding a pole.

Those are my opinions based on what I've heard. I don't know Bubka personally (obviously) and have no evidence to support my claims. If you feel that I have incinuated anything negative about you or your organization in any way, I apologize, I don't wish to offend anyone. Let me know what you guys think.

Peace.

[dj]

Tim

You are so, so right about the athletic ability… Bubka was good but not “phenomenal”… what made him “look” untouchable was his confidence and “take no prisoner” competitiveness.

Oh.. I think you meant 6.40…..

And I must go back and say again, what I believe I heard from the first time Petrov spoke in Reno…

He said, but in kind terms, was that the American vaulters were P..88.sies…. (kitty kats)
Allan don’t take this as a green light to “dig”..

Here Is what I thought I heard.. Petrov say

“

the takeoff has to be “free”… you should not “feel” the pole until you are off the ground. To the vaulter this is an “unsafe” feeling. The American vaulter feels unsafe and pulls in with the arms (he is standing and pulls his arms down slightly from and extended plant position) this is your mistake!” (meaning Americans) and this is where I teach the vaulter to reach higher to take advantage of a good takeoff and to create a greater pole angle.”

I personally don’t know the feeling of holding a pole at 5 meters and dangling out on the end and not “feeling” the pressure of the pole. But I have coached several world class vaulters who gripped that high and it was a very real and not an imagined fear..you could see it in their eyes when they did it correct… but if you explained to them that the physics of the event created by “reaching’ more, instead of pulling in, gave a better and safer result you could get on a path to better vaulting…and you could start to build confidence. That was the track that Tully and I tried to get on, we just ran out of time and a healthy achilles.

Now second point… the pole.. to even think about performing this action the vaulter has to have total confidence in his pole. That confidence comes from experience and using poles that “feel” correct and make them feel they could try anything and the pole would not let them down..

I think design is the major factor here… any pole will not do.. when you use a pole and say “wow that is my PR, I cleared it by a foot…and it felt so easy!… I never really felt the pole at all”.

Then of course you go “stupid” and say “man if I do that on a bigger pole!!!” and you know the result of that thinking and doing!

Back to Bubka’s confidence…. And “The Pole”…….. if I remember correctly some of Bubka’s best vaults were gripping the top of a 5 meter or 5.10… and Isi has jumped better gripping the top of a 4.50m pole?

How about we get the Patterns of the pole that Bubka jump the 6.40 jump on… that Allan has on his Avatar.. and the pattern of Isi’s WR pole and see if there are any correlations.

I would like to see.. Length, Sail Length from the butt.. Trapezoid dimensions. Number of wraps.. and grip for that jump…

And I’m not supporting any one company… like I said before the “measurements” I keep getting for “honey” poles, came from every brand at the time.

Help us out Allan..

Maybe we will find part of the answer to a new world record and using the “Model”.

The reason I asked how old Chystiakov was.. I really relish the though of coaching another athlete like that…. for just a year… you never know I may live to a hundred and get few more chances… but hopefully with the talent we have that Tim is alluding to, the record will go before I get another shot….

dj

[KirkB]

... I like to have fun pole vaulting, and applying the incredibly strict discipline needed to perfect the model would spoil the sport for me. I just want to be as good as possible, while still enjoying it. ...

Hey Wally, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. I don't think "fun" and "strict discipline needed to perfect the model" are mutually exclusive!

Especially in this Advanced forum, the FUN is in PERFECTING THE MODEL, by STRICT DISCIPLINE. Your reward (your fun) for all your hard training is in jumping as high as your physical body (and mental) limitations will allow you to jump. I'm not even going to say that you MUST strictly follow the Petrov model per se, but I definitely believe that you MUST follow whatever model you and your coach have deemed to be the IDEAL model for YOU in YOUR personal situation.

Having said that, I happen to believe that the Petrov model is close - very close - to being IDEAL - for all levels of vaulters. But that's not my point (in this post). Rather, my point is that you must ALWAYS strive for perfection. That's the CHALLENGE! That's the FUN!

The only exception I can see to this is that if you're a busy student with a heavy academic load, an active social life, and perhaps a part-time job to work your way thru college, then you have to take this all into consideration given your limitted training time. There's only 24 hours in each day, and there's more to life than just PV. In this case, I think your comments are better made in the Intermediate forum - not this Advanced forum. This forum is for athletes that strive to "BE THE BEST THEY CAN BE".

TO BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE IN THE PV, YOU MUST THINK LIKE A WR HOLDER, OR ASPIRE TO BREAK THE WR - EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO CHANCE OF ACTUALLY BREAKING IT.

You see, it's not actually the WR you're chasing, it's your ever-improving PR. THAT'S the challenge! THAT'S the fun!

No offense intended if my views on this are different than yours. It's just my own opinion.

Kirk

[KirkB]

I personally don’t know the feeling of holding a pole at 5 meters and dangling out on the end and not “feeling” the pressure of the pole. But I have coached several world class vaulters who gripped that high and it was a very real and not an imagined fear..you could see it in their eyes when they did it correct… but if you explained to them that the physics of the event created by “reaching’ more, instead of pulling in, gave a better and safer result you could get on a path to better vaulting…and you could start to build confidence.

PUSH/SQUEEZE.

That's how I always thought of it, and it worked well for me. I explain what I FELT, whereas you explain what you OBSERVED. But we're both right - just from different perspectives. We're both saying the same thing.

The leverage you get from a FULLY EXTENDED top arm is significantly more than from a SHRUGGED arm/shoulder. And the LEAKAGE (energy loss) that you lose by shrugging your top shoulder is also significant.

I have heard Agapit say (somewhere in this thread, or perhaps in another related one) that it's unsafe to plant/takeoff with a fully extended top arm. I disagree with this, and from the sounds of Petrov's rant on American vaulters/coaches, he also disagrees. I will concede, tho, that you need STRONG shoulders to take the shock of the pole hitting the box. This strength is improved by high-weight/low-rep bench presses, and also by gymnastics drills. But for best results, the idea is to have a SMOOTH plant, and use the LEVERAGE of a straight top arm with minimal LEAKAGE.

I would even argue that a straight arm plant/takeoff is SAFER, because it's SMOOTHER!

You also CANNOT takeoff under! That's too hard on your shoulders and back! With PROPER technique (Petrov model), it's perfectly safe to plant/takeoff with a fully extended top arm. PUSH/SQUEEZE.

You need the CONFIDENCE that you won't hurt your shoulders on a high plant/takeoff with STRAIGHT top arm. You build that confidence thru gymnastic drills (highbar, rings, rope).

Kirk

[IAmTheWalrus]

Thanks for your point of view, I appreciate it. I probably should not have summed up such significant idea in a single statement, and I apologize. You are right, jumping well, improving upon your ability, and constantly bettering yourself is VERY fun. Every PR adds more enjoyment in my experience. My comment was more in regards to taking ones self too seriously. I have gone through several mental blocks over my career, and one big reason has been turning the sport that I love into "work." You are right, the two are not mutually exclusive, but in my experience, the "fun" part should be a context for the training. I vault because I love to vault. As a result of that, I have gotten pretty decent. If I didn't love the vault, I wouldn't continue to do it despite being capable of being competitive. I realize this is a ways away from my initial statement, but I hope this shows a little more clearly what I mean. I have gone through periods of dreading practices because the stress involved with getting onto the bigger poles in a non confident mental state made me a wreck. If any form of training ever made me dread the pole vault, or spoiled the fun of it, then I would rather do a more enjoyable training even if it wouldn't get me quite as good. I'm not saying I don't work hard, or that I only do drills and training that I like, just that training that would put me into a very negative mental state isn't worth it. Does this align more closely with your thoughts and experiences?

[KirkB]

Yeh, Wally, that makes more sense now.

Just remember that there's always going to be training days where you just "don't feel like it" - for whatever reason. And maybe those are the days when you should take a mental break, maybe go for a long jog (but not too long), then come back fresh the next day.

There will also always be drills that you dread. For me, I was a poor runner, so I didn't look forward to running drills. But I got thru that by focussing on my longer term goals. I NEEDED to improve my running speed, so the drills were WORTH IT. And eventually, my speed DID improve. With that mindset, the running drills became easier and even "more fun" for me. I knew they were a means to an end.

"No pain, no gain".

Kirk

[IAmTheWalrus]

Thank you.

[altius]

"Either there is a flaw in the present understanding and teaching of the model --." You only have to read the posts on pvp to see that there is still no real understanding of the Petrov model by many coaches and athletes - indeed if you read back over the past two years it is clear there is still an underlying resentment that anyone would think that a RUSSIAN approach to doing anything could be better than the AMURICUN way. I suspect that there are still many coaches in the US who claim that Bubkas performances were ONLY the result of his superior physical and mental qualities - despite the fact that he himself has made it clear that was not the case. Also folk may remember a session in Reno when four coaches got up to talk on the subject of pole speed -I was the only one who made it clear that the only way was the Petrov way.

Then again it is one thing to TALK about the model - or claim to apply it - just take a look at the clinics all over the place that advertise the "Petrov model". I suspect many of the directors of these camps have never heard Petrov speak or better still seen him in action. Because that is the key to the whole business - the quality of the practice. When you see Petrov almost demolish two 5.70 athletes with criticism - to the point where I tried to intervene - and then see that for him "Perfection is expected - excellence will be tolerated" is not a throwaway line - you understand the level of commitment needed to MASTER this complex event. The fact is as the Walrus has pointed out , the majority of vaulters just want to enjoy the sport of vaulting - near enough is good enough for them - and why not?? It is better by far to take part at any level than not.

Then you must look at the US system -which I understand and do not criticise. It gives thousands of kids a chance to take up the vault and has produced exceptional athletes over many years -toughminded and determined athletes like Tim Mack, Stacey Dragila and Jeff Hartwig who have soldiered on without ever having the support that Bubka enjoyed. But the US does it the hard way - typically a vaulter may have four different coaches as they progress from Junior High to International competition - Bubka had one. He had to do little relearning - perhaps the greatest waste of time on the planet. Until there is general agreement that the Petrov model is the way to go throughout the USA at every level then this problem will continue - how many athletes have outstanding high school careers -by US standards -and never make significant progress in college or beyond?? Is it because they have to spend time eliminating bad habits - or because college coaches are happy if the athlete is already good enough to get points at the conference and sees no point in changing things?

Note that I have repeatedly expressed my belief that you do not have to completely master the model to improve your performance. Just ensuring an effective structured run up and achieving a free take off will do that - and hopefully will also lead to better execution of the next phases.

Now I am just a teacher - not a Petrov a Parnov, a Botcharnikov or Krysinski or even a Mark Stewart or Steve Rippon but I have read what they have written and or watched them in action for reasonable periods of time. I have spent time with Bubka and tried to capture the essence of his method in two books and dvds. And I have spent fifty years coaching track and field -including six successful years in the US. But when I offer to do clinics with folk in the USA I still often get turned down - this despite references from coaches of the calibre of Baggett, Stan Solomon, Todd Cooper,Rusty Shealy , Joel Flores, the folk at Slippery Rock, Daniel Isaacs and Daniel Bertolami - people who use my expertise on an annual basis. When Botcharnikov and I offered a three day coaches clinic last summer at Slippery Rock we got only 13 takers!!! Why is that - do the coaches who do not even reply to my mail already know so much they dont need any help - looking at performances at high school and colleges in many states suggests many need all the help they can get - especially in understanding the basic principles of instruction. Again it is one thing to understand the Petrov model and it is another to know how to introduce it to young athletes.

To get back on topic -or almost - when Petrov first met Chystiakov he announced publicly -and I still have the newspaper clipping - that Victor could jump 6.40. Unfortunately circumstances conspired against that happening but that is another story.

I have already broken my vow to stay out of the debates on PVP so forgive me if I dont leap in to defend myself when the attack dogs strike - as they inevitably will if past experience is anything to go by.

[IAmTheWalrus]

I agree with you totally. I think that the way that athletics were nationalized in the soviet union and their methods of training lend themselves to producing some of the best athletes in the world. I read an article some time ago about tennis training in either Russia or the soviet union (I forget the time period), but it talked about how they trained these athletes, and it was astounding. The children would go years without ever playing a game, they would just do drills. The philosophy of getting the basics and essentials down first produces very good results, but could you imagine something like this actually happening in the US? Kids rarely have the patience to do such a thing. Could you imagine spending your entire first year of pole jumping from 2 steps, never going over a bar, just working on the takeoff? I know that I wasn't really that hooked on pole vaulting until I bent the pole, and I definitely did not have the fundamentals down yet. Now in hind sight I realize the importance of such things, and I am trying to make up for my deficiencies as much as possible, but the high volume of competition makes it difficult to really break down the vault too much, because I need to be ready to compete at the beginning of December. No doubt a vaulter who works on the correct technique from day 1, never skipping a step, and never moving to the next step until perfecting the last would have huge advantageous over other vaulters at every level, however it is so difficult to do this in a culture that prides itself on the immediate result. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, because I definitely do feel that 6.15 will be broken, and that 6.40 is achievable, but it will take an athlete AND coach who have the foresight to understand the commitment it will take, the patience and discipline to stay with it all the way, and the focus to not let outside factors deviate them. Oh yeah, and incredible athletic talent.

I think the first step is getting all the coaches on the same page so that the incredible athletes aren't squandered, learning bad habits and never realizing the potential that they have. Many coaches at the high school level don't even understand the body type and athletic ability that pole vault requires, and send potential 6m jumpers away to do hurdles or long jump.

Again this is not meant to offend anyone, and I am just using what I have heard or read to make inferences about the effect that different cultures has had on the pole vault and its teaching/training. If you have a problem with anything I've said, let me know, chances are you are right , but please don't be offended.

Take care everyone.

Peace.

[Pogo Stick]

My comment was more in regards to taking ones self too seriously. I have gone through several mental blocks over my career, and one big reason has been turning the sport that I love into "work." You are right, the two are not mutually exclusive, but in my experience, the "fun" part should be a context for the training. I vault because I love to vault. As a result of that, I have gotten pretty decent. If I didn't love the vault, I wouldn't continue to do it despite being capable of being competitive.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong in doing something seriously or turning what you love in work. This is the best you can do for yourself.

"If you love your job, you never will work a day in your life!"

I never felt training as a work and I was practicing very hard for few years. At the same time I was studying to get my B.Sc. degree and pissed blood trying to keep both on track. I picked what I liked - computer sciences.
When I went to "real world" and got the job, this again wasn't feel as a work. I was doing what I wanted and what I loved. And comparing to vaulting the job was a joke and relaxation. As Bubba says on his website http://www.bubbapv.com/Pages/DoYouLovetoPV.htm:

I'm happy to say that the "REAL" world is not difficult if you share our work ethic. I remember my first job with a Fortune 100 company and thinking, "these guys think THIS IS WORK". GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Then, I moved to Canada. :-)

[Tim McMichael]

I don't believe that you can do in America what they did in the Soviet system. To be an athlete in Eastern Europe you had to be willing live and train under a system where most of an athlete's life was regulated. I have a number of problems with this, some of them practical, some of them ethical, but there is no doubt that it produced exceptional athletes.

The American system, if you can call it that, allows for a freedom that the Soviet system could never afford. In their scientifically run system I would never have been allowed to participate in the vault at all. They would have weighed and timed me when I was about 13 years old and decided that there was no hope for me to win any medals, and I would have been educated in some other service to the state. When I am told that I would have done better if I had been coached by Petrov, I can't help but reflect on the fact that had I lived in Eastern Europe in the '80s I would never have known his name. In America I was free to develop my talents in the vocation of my choice and experiment to find the training, technique, and equipment that worked best for me. And while this dream turned out to be a waste of time from the standpoint of possible Olympic medals, it sure was fun to try. I think that Altius is mistaking a basic difference in world view for blind jingoism and patriotic prejudice. Bubka's performance was a product of his time and place as much as anything else. I am not sure it is possible, or advisable to try to reproduce those conditions here. I cannot imagine Earl Bell, for instance, keeping track of every minute detail of his athlete's personal lives. I have worked with him, and beyond some basic fundamentals, he offers very little definite advice. He provides a world class facility, an exciting competitive atmosphere, and a lot of personal experience and then turns his athletes loose to make the best of it that they can. This has produced a staggering number of fantastic vaulters, none of whom have jumped exactly alike. This may be a limitation from the standpoint of following in Bubka's footsteps, but there can be no arguing the fact that Bell's methods have produced results on par with what anyone else is doing right now.

Leaving aside these issues of social differences, my question concerning the fact that Bubka's record seems as safe as it has ever been embraces more than just the American coaches and athletes. Altius names a number of expert coaches who have embraced the Petrov model. This begs the question. Why haven't Parnov, Botcharnikov, Krysinski, Mark Stewart, Steve Rippon, or even Petrov himself produced a successor to Bubka? The fault for this cannot lie entirely with the shortcomings of the American system. Nobody else seems to be doing any better.

And Allan, I entirely agree that all you need is a structured run and a free takeoff to enjoy this sport. But that in itself is still miles away from jumping like Bubka.

[Tim McMichael]

Then you must look at the US system -which I understand and do not criticise. It gives thousands of kids a chance to take up the vault and has produced exceptional athletes over many years -toughminded and determined athletes like Tim Mack, Stacey Dragila and Jeff Hartwig who have soldiered on without ever having the support that Bubka enjoyed. But the US does it the hard way - typically a vaulter may have four different coaches as they progress from Junior High to International competition - Bubka had one. He had to do little relearning - perhaps the greatest waste of time on the planet. Until there is general agreement that the Petrov model is the way to go throughout the USA at every level then this problem will continue - how many athletes have outstanding high school careers -by US standards -and never make significant progress in college or beyond?? Is it because they have to spend time eliminating bad habits - or because college coaches are happy if the athlete is already good enough to get points at the conference and sees no point in changing things?

Excellent point. This is another very strong argument in favor of a standardized method. If every coach taught basically the same thing, the number of coaches an athlete has would not be as much of a limitiation.