Pole Vault Manifesto

[KirkB]

... From what I know of Romans work.. he knows the vault from take off to max height pretty well.

I do know Petrov structured Bubka in his early career.. maybe up and to the world record.. I’m not quite sure when but Bubka seemed to make his own decisions in his “later” vault career.. whither those thoughts corresponded to Petrov or not are not worth debating.

6.40 Model is a different model similar to the block start as compared to the standing start in sprints. For example who told you before that you must invert immediately upon completing the take-off jump? How is this not a different approach (model)? ...

Who was this a quote from.. Roman??

This is the way Tully was taught.. and many vaulters before him…

And I agree with this… I just felt as and athlete in the long jump and pole vault, and as a coach, I wanted to get all the “physics” out of the takeoff that was possible.. or an explosive “impulse” BAM.. Attack and then swing like H&%%...

Yes, this is a quote from Agapit ... as I said above ...

... On page 4 of this thread, Agapit says ...

6.40 Model is a different model similar to the block start as compared to the standing start in sprints. For example who told you before that you must invert immediately upon completing the take-off jump? How is this not a different approach (model)? ...

What in particular are you not agreeing with in the 6.40 Model? As to originality, did you ever seen anything of the sort, published anywhere except by the author?

Lotta good stuff there, DJ, but my questions are still left unanswered. Can Agapit take Bubka's 1997 technique and claim 8 years later that it's a DIFFERENT model, or does that model belong to Petrov and Bubka ... developed over many years ... WITHOUT a break-thru modification to the technique in 1997?

My point is that if Bubka changed something substantially in 1997, we would have heard about it in 1997 ... not 2005. And we would have heard this EARTH-SHATTERING NEWS from Petrov, Bubka, AND Launder (the English voice of Petrov - so to speak).

Even if Petrov was no longer coaching Bubka in 1997, he would have HEARD about his NEW, INNOVATIVE technique, and he would have divulged it ... especially after Bubka retired and there was no reason to keep it as a trade secret. If Petrov had heard abut it and talked about it, then LAUNDER would have heard about it and wrote about it.

But no mention. Nadda. Nil. Zilch. For 8 years. What does that tell you?

Launder published BTB1 prior to 2005, so that accounts for why there's no mention of the 640 Model in it. But he published BTB2 in 2007, yet STILL no mention of the 640 Model. What does that tell you?

Hints: Does Bubka's chest PENETRATE or not? Does he pull INSTANTLY after takeoff or not?

Perhaps that was a rhetorical question. My answer is that it tells us that Agapit's 640 Model is a THEORETICAL model that is not based on anyone having achieved world-class success with it ... yet.

Let's say ... for a moment ... that Bubka was still young and healthy between 1997 and 2005, and let's say that his coach was Agapit. My take on the 640 Model is that it's how Agapit would have CHANGED Bubka's technique ... in order to clear 6.40m+.

Kirk

[dj]

Hye

I’m inclined to believe this is Roman’s theory of a ‘correct” vault that could produce a 6.40 jump..

I think the Max COM of the jump that is sometimes mentioned and, I think, has been shown on here or in pictures, was scientifically set at 6.39 COM???

I’m sure Roman studied Bubka’s jumps and Pertrov’s coaching, if he was around at those times, so he could come to the ‘conclusions” of his model.

What I was trying to say was we have “analyzed” and have come up with different terms, or verbal explanations of the same movement.. pull, push.. etc..etc,, and everyone can relate to each of the terms based on their experience, study and “picture” that each word can create in the individuals mind.

The 640 is Roman’s..

i coached successfully with basicly 3 hand singles from 40 rows up in the Olympic stadium... so a lot of words are unnecessary...

I know that Tully was never taught to “jump”… and was already world class before I worked with him… but I do know that the greater the “impulse” in the right way at the plant takeoff the higher you can grip and still get the pole to vertical.. so my first goal was a fast aggressive run.. that gave him a linebacker mentality at the plant. That involved speed on the run with enough “up” impulse that would transfer that speed correctly onto the pole with the higher grip…

I know you can pull with the bottom hand and invert on a pole… but I know Tully or Bell were never actually taught to pull with the bottom hand…

what I’m not sure of is if you could/can pull with the bottom hand as fast as you will already be “swinging around the top hand, after an “elastic” extension and correct takeoff. Remember from takeoff to max bend is .50 seconds… and 1.0 seconds to the end of the vault from there. So we never tried to pull with the bottom hand.. we just tried to swing to “inversion” as fast as possible.. thought the shoulders and top hand.. BAM.. inversion, line up and go… even though it would feel like you were 5 feet in front of the box.. you had to get “ahead” of the pole and bend.. because it was moving very fast because of your action and not just from a “fast” acting pole..

I’m not going to argue pull or no pull… I know I use my hands to vault.. and that Mack gets great air from using the arms.. because his pole flexes are not out of the ordinary.. so he is doing some good work some where and his hands are on the pole…

dj

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, so I did have it right from the beginning. The 6.4 Model is part of and included in the PV Manifesto. I dont have the energy or time to argue semantics. Please dont be insulted by that, but your post have me more confused then ever and tired. As I understand the purpose of the 6.4 Model, it is to add to or improve upon the Petrov Model. A very worthwhile endeavor indeed! The biggest point that I want to make is that the 1997 Bubka vault is not that far from and may already be the ideal or perfect form. And make no mistake about it, for that Petrov is the true PV coach Pioneer! What Agapit and others are doing so well is describing it in much more clarity and detail then what Petrov did in his document. At least the one that I read. Did he leave these small but very important details out on purpose?
One point that Agapit makes that I don't nescessarily agree with is that the speed of the swing comes from the pulling of the left hand. A rubberband stretch From the top hand to the toe of the swing leg from the inverted-C and the contraction the lower abdominals makes much more sense and that is what I see with my own eyes in the video. I can see however were some left hand pull would add to the process. I would love to hear from you world class vaulters were you feel the acceleration of the swing is comming from in more detail. Especially from the great swingers!
Another very important point that I feel needs to be expanded upon and does not seem to be emphasized nearly enough is the TREMENDOUS pull of the left hand to the point of literallly throwing your left elbow and back of the hand down to the bearing point of the pole while at the same time the head, neck and upper back are thrust back in also a violent action that takes place simultaneously from almost full inversion at the point I have previously called "U". Perhaps "U" is the wrong term and I will gladly change my term fo a better one if someone can give me the name of that position? It is the position you are in, while verticle, before the pull and the laying back of the upperback, neck and head in line with the pole. Do all you greats hit it as violently as Bubka? Watch the video at that point 20 times and please comment. I personally believe it is one of the more important points that needs to be perfected and is the reasom why vaulters over the past 10 years have not come close to 6.4.

[PVDaddy]

Kirk you said; [quote][/quote]I will caution you on the 640 Model tho ... it's not for high-schoolers. IMHO, it's only achievable by the very best of the best gymnasts / elite vaulter

Not trying to be argumentative here but do you recall when I said that I had the privaledge of coaching many Kids to state and national status in wrestling with technique that I had never used myself?

Well I personally know that the reason we were able to do it is because we went against the overwelming consensus that " kids shouldn't be taught that, thats only for advanced wrestlers at advanced levels".

Well we started coaching these kids from an early age with advanced technique. They soaked it up like a sponge and were literally destroying their oponents from an early age. Every single one of them had remarkable High School carreers and Broke High school records eveywere they went.
Seven of them got full ride scholarships this year alone.

You see advanced technique is not something that is Mysterious and very difficult and only suitable for the elite but is advanced because it is technically sound.

I think I will take the same approach to PV.

[KirkB]

You see advanced technique is not something that is Mysterious and very difficult and only suitable for the elite but is advanced because it is technically sound.

I think I will take the same approach to PV.

I have forewarned you ... but it's up to you. I think this is where your lack of PV coaching experience shows.

There's a reason why the 640 Model is NOT recommended for high-school vaulters ... and I've already told you why. If a PV technique is only possible by the elite of the elite (only the 2 vaulters that I mentioned - and maybe only another handful), then it's not something for the mainstream. In fact, coaching a high-schooler to NOT penetrate his chest, and to PULL as soon as he takes off is dangerously counterproductive.

On the first page of this thread, you will read that Agapit himself provides this warning:

This requires remarkable movement consistency, pure athletism and pure faith in laws of mechanics.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: DO NOT ATTEMPT ANY OF THIS WITHOUT PROPER COACHING SUPERVISION. IT MAY REQUIRE SEVERAL YEARS OF CONTINUOUS TRAINING BEFORE DESCRIBED IN THIS MANIFESTO METHOD COULD BE PERFORMED BY ANYONE.

And when asked how long it will take to be able to use the 640 Model ... also on page 1 ... his reply is:

... 18-24 months

Assuming that your son even has the athleticism to perform the 640 Model, are you willing to put his career on hold for 18-24 months whilst he learns it? Didn't think so!

Take some time to browse around PVP and watch some youtube vids ... of high-schoolers and elites. Ask yourself why you're not seeing anyone following the 640 Model.

Kirk

[dj]

hey

i don't know what the 640 model teaches...

if it follows “physics”, and it should.. and if it follows bubka’s best jumps, Mack’s best jumps and others best jumps.. which follow physics.. energy in on the right pole with the right grip creates a “chain” of action-reaction.. resulting in a proportionate height above grip…

if the vault doesn’t look like a high school’er could do it..
it’s looks alone is giving the wrong feed back…

Bubka was able to create his “technique” because of proper training to physics received from Petrov.. his “look” was because he could hold higher on his 5m, 5.10m and 5.20 meter poles in relationship to the sail piece because of his coaching, training and commitment to takeoff out and make it happen without pulling in at the plant but reach up higher when he was out…. and poles had improved during the time he was jumping 1980 to 1990… which created some perfect “matches” at the time..

Should we be improving today… yes..
we have gone through a set back, maybe because we have continue to think he (Bubka) was to good for us to reach or because we kept looking at the “pictures” instead of the physics…

if we were committed to the physics we would be running a minimum of 20 strides on our run…

I have tried very hard in my career not to coach anyone down.. and know I haven’t in 40 years of coaching. But I can’t say that about a lot of coaches who have had the “talent” to go after the world record for men and women.

dj

ps… we are miss understanding the “model” if we think it can’t be duplicated technically and will/can produce a max height for anyone based on physical ability, speed, strength and agility, if the talent is there it will produce a world record..

[PVDaddy]

"In fact, coaching a high-schooler to NOT penetrate his chest, and to PULL as soon as he takes off is dangerously counterproductive"

First of all it would not make sense to teach a High School vaulter not to penetrate with the chest because the Petrov Model specifically instructs deep chest penetration. That is what Bubka does and is a critical to a proper executed Take off into the inverted C? Probably the most important part of the stretch!

Second of all I would never teach a High School vaulter to Pull at take off but to stretch as much as possible in an upward and Forward manner with the Top hand. That also is what Bubka and the Petrov Model do and teach.

So here are two elements of the Vault that the elite in the world perform which also should be taught to the High School Vaulter. IMHO they also should be part of the 6.4. I would think they are? If not I would already be skeptical of the Model.

[PVDaddy]

One point that Agapit makes that I don't nescessarily agree with is that the speed of the swing comes from the pulling of the left hand. A rubberband stretch From the top hand to the toe of the swing leg from the inverted-C and the contraction the lower abdominals makes much more sense and that is what I see with my own eyes in the video. I can see however were some left hand pull would add to the process. I would love to hear from you world class vaulters were you feel the acceleration of the swing is comming from in more detail. Especially from the great swingers!

Another very important point that I feel needs to be expanded upon and does not seem to be emphasized nearly enough is the TREMENDOUS pull of the left hand to the point of literallly throwing your left elbow and back of the hand down to the bearing point of the pole while at the same time the head, neck and upper back are thrust back in also a violent action that takes place simultaneously from almost full inversion at the point I have previously called "U". Perhaps "U" is the wrong term and I will gladly change my term fo a better one if someone can give me the name of that position? It is the position you are in, while verticle, before the pull and the laying back of the upperback, neck and head in line with the pole. Do all you greats hit it as violently as Bubka? Watch the video at that point 20 times and please comment. I personally believe it is one of the more important points that needs to be perfected and is the reasom why vaulters over the past 10 years have not come close to 6.4.

[IAmTheWalrus]

I think the fact that you are skeptical and that there is so much debate about this model is a great reason not to teach it. You would do better to teach the model that you know best. As you learn more and more as a coach you incorporate those elements in your teaching. To attempt to teach a model that you do not understand would do more harm than good. For example, if upon learning of the free takeoff you focused solely on your vaulter's takeoff mark, and continually moved them back until they were outside their mark, but you did so without fixing problems with their run, or teaching them how to hit a strong upsringing takeoff, you would hinder the vaulter rather than help them. Besides, as DJ said, although us coaches may teach things differently and call them different things, we are usually attempting to achieve the same "model," we just conceptualize it differently.

[KirkB]

"In fact, coaching a high-schooler to NOT penetrate his chest, and to PULL as soon as he takes off is dangerously counterproductive"

First of all it would not make sense to teach a High School vaulter not to penetrate with the chest because the Petrov Model specifically instructs deep chest penetration. That is what Bubka does and is a critical to a proper executed Take off into the inverted C? Probably the most important part of the stretch!

Second of all I would never teach a High School vaulter to Pull at take off but to stretch as much as possible in an upward and Forward manner with the Top hand. That also is what Bubka and the Petrov Model do and teach.

So here are two elements of the Vault that the elite in the world perform which also should be taught to the High School Vaulter. IMHO they also should be part of the 6.4. I would think they are? If not I would already be skeptical of the Model.

You are now back on track.

If you read the 640 Model thoroughly, you will read where Agapit promotes NO chest penetration and INSTANT pull with the bottom arm ... whereas the Petrov Model doesn't. These are really my only 2 complaints against it ... albeit big ones.

Kirk

[KirkB]

... I would love to hear from you world class vaulters were you feel the acceleration of the swing is coming from in more detail. Especially from the great swingers!

You'll save me a lot of typing if you search for "kirk downswing" and read my posts about this.

If you want to dig even deeper, read my "Bryde Bend" thread.

The elastic stretch to the C and the downswing were the strongest parts of my vault ... so I do think that I speak with some authority on this. However, I'm the first to admit that my run was weak, so I usually don't comment on that aspect of PV technique ... even tho I consider it to be EXTREMELY important.

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, thank-you for the information reguarding how you generated so much speed in your swing. "Jump to the Split Position - and Lift Trail Leg Back." I always thought that something special was happenning with Bubkas take off foot when he took off that was different then his normal sprint and now I can clearly see that he's doing the same thing as you! I feel like I was just handed a new tool!

I also noticed something else after viewing the 1997 Video. Bubka does not appear to jump at all at take off, but holds the hands high and just runs through with chest forward and puts the emphasis on lifting the trail leg back. There is no pull or push. The pole bends on it own.

I noticed something else. He does pull with the left hand at swing but that does not occur until the pole begins to uncoil. The more it uncoils, the harder he pulls, with maximum pull action occuring at the same time as layback were he violently throws the elbow and hand down toward the bearing point of the pole while at the same time violently throws his head, neck, and shoulders down which greatly increases the thrust into I. There is also some right hand pulling action that takes place toward the end of I. Some refer to this as the layback position. Agapit says that this is a passive motion were I would argue it is a very active motion!