Speed or Strength?

[Carolina21]

Some really great video of one of the best gymnast on high bar (Alexei Nemov) can be seen here, he performs a free hip to handstand at the beginning as well as many examples of giants and accelerated swings:

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~slow/elt/pommel ... 3%20TF.mpg

As a former longtime gymnast myself I tend to think of the swings energy as being generated from the core and shoulders and the whip kick everyone keep describing as more of an action that is a result of proper core and shoulder motion, but either way you think about or describe it, the whip kick it is a vital part of the swing.
When Nemov wants to generate the most energy, like when he performs his release moves, he hits a big reverse C then breaks his swing very slightly at the hip (shifts hips) into the previously described "dished" position and accelerates upwards; very similar to the move we put on the pole. Although he maintains a much straighter body position than most vaulters are able to maintain.

Hopefully this helps some people visualize certain aspects of the swing on high bar that have been described.

Disclaimer: You must watch gymnastics with a grain of salt, they tend to do certain things for aesthetic reasons and not simply because it is the most efficient way to do the motion. As a vaulter you should be in the business of clearing bars the most efficient way possible not the prettiest. Besides, clearing 20ft no matter how you look would always be something amazing to watch. I doubt many of us would recommend running like a gymnast with pointed toes and straight arms.

[master]

Great descriptions PVstudent. Regarding including an image in a post, the image must be on a web site somewhere and then you provide a link to it. PM me and maybe I can help get it posted.

Thanks for the video link Carolina21, and your description of the techniques. Pictures and video are most helpful.

- master

[Tim McMichael]

Contracting muscles are an energy system in themselves. They add work to the flow of energy that the run and plant set up. It's that simple. Muscle contraction = added energy. We can debate about how much, but the added energy is there.

[Carolina21]

Tim,
I agree with you that proper muscle contraction adds energy. In fact, does it even matter if it were 1% or 20% that was added? Any added energy will equate to the potential for a higher clearance and should be sought after whenever possible. 1% here and 2% there will start to add up.
Minimize the losses and maximize the gains.

[vaultwest]

As Bubka said, parapharsing After all once you leave the ground you are a gymnast. If that video sequence does not illustrate how much energy an athlete can put into a system nothing does.

As a vaulter that never was introduced to gymnastics until very late in my career like 15 years later, and as a guy that could do nothing gymnastically, to a guy that learned to swing giants and do free hip hands on the high bar and some of the same associated moves on the rings I don't understand how anyone could make the claim that the vaulter does not add enrgy to the system. Learning to swing correctly and produce and utilize that energy to perform giant swings and free hip hands is such a huge help in vaulting and from my experiences those movements were not automatic. It took me and all the vaulters I have coached a lot of time and much hard work to not only learn these movements but also develop the proper strength to perform them.

Obviously the greatest percentage of energy is from the run but we have all seen certain slow vaulters jump much higher than we would expect them to jump because of there great technique and gymnastic talent.

I think gymnastic ability is one of our men's( American) liabilities. For most men's vaulters doing gymnastics does not happen until one gets to college and we would be much better served if gymnastics was the first sport learned. Our women are better served with gymnastic club opportunities but even there most of that exposure is for the relatively short athlete and while those athletes do great, taller vaulters tend to get left out a little.
Just my two cents worth
Vault On

[vault3rb0y]

Thank you... very refreshing to see some people agree with me in this thread.

[PVstudent]

Carolina Extreme, Tim, DJ, Master all contribute excellent points.

I would like to reinforce Carolina's disclaimer and simply say that clearing the bar can be "ugly" but when great exponents of pole vault clear extreme heights they usuall have exploited the biomechanical principles (biological and mechanical) optimally( for them) under the constraints operating at the day, time and place.

Efficiency in motion of the human body whether it is sumo wrestling, mountain climbing,violin playing or pole vaulting evokes an aesthtic response in both the performer and the observer.

We recognise quality when we see it in human motion. We recognise the feeling when we ouselves move rhythmically and harmoniously in a complex movement sequence (Great comments Tim re the neuromuscular (kinaesthesis) sensations of explosively projecting upwards from the pole).

He or she who springs and swings can pole vault! However, a word of caution re gymnastics and pole vault.

When time, opportunity, facilties (including coaching expertise) are limited vault to learn to vault. When there is time and a safe learning environment in which to practice, learning of gymnastic elements related to pole vault should be done in a planned orderly progression based on fundamental movement patterns. This progressive practice provides balanced development of whole body management strength and power. It deals particularly with dynamic core strength and cordination development of dominant movement patterns (springing, swinging,rotating, circling, twisting and very importantly landings).

Families of related movement tecniques can be learned that replicate closely the movements in the pole vault support phases. For example the clear hip circle to handstand is from the "felge family of movement patterns" that are performed on the horizontal bar, rings, parallel and assymetrical bars. These "felge" type movements teach shoulder swing and hip drive inversions whilst supported by the hands.

Gymnastics has been a core and fundamental training modality in the Russian, French, German and Polish schools of pole vaulting. It also gets some emphasis here in Australia.

Coach Baggett's clinic will be an opportunity that coaches should not miss!

Sprint, spring, swing and soar over high bars safely!

[dj]

good morning

one of the first things mike tully learned in the early 80's was a free hip into a handstand. the high bar was lowered to 6' with 12" mats on both sides.. i had to actually demo it myself.. scary thought ... because i can't remember if i had ever learned it myself prior to that..(maybe college days 20 years before) i did have the northridge gymnastics coach school me a few days before he was to try it.. she was "qte" so i did listen...

the thought of 6'4" and 200lbs .. i did pull a table next to the bar to stand on to spot.. don't think it was needed.. he did 3 sets of 5, one to two days a week along with 4 other exercises on the rings, parallel bars and floor..

the free hip rotated to a handstand with a pushoff to land on the mat standing...

not only did this strengthen and condition his body, he learned the "feel" for the middle part of the swing and the acceleration involved........

dj

[Carolina21]

Another drill I have recently started to re-implement, that I feel is also equally as useful as free hip to handstand on the high bar is a swing to handstand on the rings. Although you don't experience the huge acceleration of a free hip to handstand the swing you generate and the position you hit at the bottom of the swing is much closer to the position we hit in the vault. You can start to learn this by simply learning to generate big swings on the rings, followed by learning a dislocate and inlocate, then a swing to a shoulder stand, and then as you are able to generate a more efficient and powerful swing you will be able to take it up to a handstand. I will try to dig up / create and post some video of these drills in the next couple days since everyone seemed to appreciate the previous high bar video.

[tstkl]

Im on the speed boat as well. I've seen a lot of really fast vaulters go high with little form, but rarely do you see a slow vaulter go high based on their strenght. Speed not only translates to bigger poles, but your momentum is carried through to your swing, which can result in a faster inversion. From my experience, running faster can really cream a pole fast, and as long as you have the strength to hold yourself together, you can get pretty far on only speed. Of corse your not going anywhere without both, but as far as one dominating the other, I believe more can be done with speed than with strenght.

[vault3rb0y]

side note.... DSM'er.... Diamond Star Motors? Thata boy

[tstkl]

yeah, between the dsm and pole vaulting, I find myself on runways quite a bit...

also might be why I think speed is more important than strenght... LOL